New PPGD 9/4/13 - Once More Unto The Breach

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Re: New PPGD 9/4/13 - Once More Unto The Breach

Postby Havoc » Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:16 am

So based on the original cartoon, the most likely outcome is that the sword will merely bounce off them (the PPG) if someone evil like Samantha or Bell tries to use it to cut them down.

But I still say if this isn't true, and the sword doesn't discriminate based on morals, then I say it would have no problem cutting through anyone of the PPG.
After all it went through solid steel robots with no resistance.
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Re: New PPGD 9/4/13 - Once More Unto The Breach

Postby CTCFirebird » Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:20 pm

The talk about Jack's sword again? I really don't think that Samantha would get around to using it since the timing of the bomb anyways. Only person I could think that would most likely use the sword would be Bell.
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Re: New PPGD 9/4/13 - Once More Unto The Breach

Postby Blood Lord » Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:51 pm

The talk about Jack's sword again?

Oh yeah. Discussion going around in a circle, like a wagon train pulling over for the evening.

Sometimes its because new evidence has been brought to light or a new perspective, other times its because we just don;t have anything else to talk about.

Havoc wrote:So based on the original cartoon, the most likely outcome is that the sword will merely bounce off them (the PPG) if someone evil like Samantha or Bell tries to use it to cut them down.

Supposedly, yes.

I'm just curious about the specific perimeters that it has to make these judgements. How does it know that one person is "more evil" than another? Or that the target is "good" enough not to get damaged? Does it measure the wielder and decide wither to act or not?

Also, if its a reflection of the heart and looks at the person holding it and not the target, then how can it make a call if Sam is what appears to be a complete robot now?
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Re: New PPGD 9/4/13 - Once More Unto The Breach

Postby Tenshi Nova » Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:19 am

Just a thought. Aku had taken over in the show. I'm sure there are many places that worshiped Aku, some may only be alive because of him. If Jack were to destroy Aku, then it can be said he's also indirectly destroying a few civilization. With families and the like. I believe the episode said that the sword can't cut because of who uses it, not because of who it's targeting.

My meaning is that, Aku never had the intention to help the civilizations he helped, so the sword realizes that. Jack doesn't want to harm what he may be inadvertently harming. So in this case, Sam is wielding the sword, the sword would judge her based on if her intentions are righteous or not. Seeing as her main 'function' atm is to beat the PPG our of anger, it probably can't hurt anything. But, if she believes that the bomb detonating would bring out the better good, the sword could be in her favor. Course, only time will tell.
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Re: New PPGD 9/4/13 - Once More Unto The Breach

Postby Blood Lord » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:26 pm

How would the sword judge the intentions of a machine?
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Re: New PPGD 9/4/13 - Once More Unto The Breach

Postby Birdofterror » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:28 pm

Well...

Uh...

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Re: New PPGD 9/4/13 - Once More Unto The Breach

Postby Tenshi Nova » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:45 pm

She's not full machine yet. And it could possibly know it's 'objective'. The machine's sender's intentions.

The explanation doesn't seem to judge the target, only the user. Meaning that if Sam has no intentions, just her objective. Then it's not an evil one, unless the sword has Jack's father's sense of morals.
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Re: New PPGD 9/4/13 - Once More Unto The Breach

Postby ari-6 » Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:16 pm

Blood Lord wrote:How would the sword judge the intentions of a machine?
I guess it is possible she still has a soul or is not all machine. The way I see it, for her to maintain who she is, some part of her must remain human. Or possibly the body we see now is is actually a robotic humonculus her mind has only been mapped on to. Which would mean the real Sam is still alive somewhere. Also I think Sam is going to sacrifice herself to detonate the bomb but I have a hard time believing Bleedman would kill her off.
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Re: New PPGD 9/4/13 - Once More Unto The Breach

Postby Tenshi Nova » Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:25 pm

It's been confirmed that Sam will die.
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Re: New PPGD 9/4/13 - Once More Unto The Breach

Postby CTCFirebird » Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:35 pm

I really don't think that she would do that. I mean, she would, but imo, I think Bell and Samantha would have such disagreements in this battle against Blossom and Samantha. I'm guessing they would attack each other at some point due to their team up. Heh, who knows!
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Re: New PPGD 9/4/13 - Once More Unto The Breach

Postby Havoc » Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:56 am

Tenshi Nova wrote:She's not full machine yet. And it could possibly know it's 'objective'. The machine's sender's intentions

I too am still not 100% convinced Sam is completely robotic. I think it's possible that the left half of her head, and parts of her mid-body might still be organic. She was bleeding a few pages ago.

CTCFirebird wrote:I really don't think that she would do that. I mean, she would, but imo, I think Bell and Samantha would have such disagreements in this battle against Blossom and Samantha. I'm guessing they would attack each other at some point due to their team up. Heh, who knows!

You mean Sam sacrificing herself. I came up with an idea awhile back. It's highly possible that she's running from something psychologically by making herself a machine. What if after she's defeated, whatever it is she's running from, hits her like a ton of bricks, and she realizes that she'll never achieve what she's trying to achieve by making herself a robot? So out of pure emotional turmoil and frustration, she decides to kill herself and take everyone else with her.

Also, I came up with a theory in the "Comic Updates and News" version of this page. Just I thought I'd just move it here, if anyone is interested:

I wrote:I had a pretty far-fetched theory. What if it's the Time Squad that reconnects the power to the tower and sets the bomb off? If this Bomb somehow starts off Jack's quest to save the world and prevent the apocalypse, and is also the thing that causes the Time Squad to exist in the first place, then setting it off might be for the greater-good. I know that's not a great theory, but I thought I'd just throw that out there.
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Re: New PPGD 9/4/13 - Once More Unto The Breach

Postby Mercen-X » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:31 am

Blood Lord wrote:I'm just curious about the specific parameters that it has to make these judgements. How does it know that one person is "more evil" than another? Or that the target is "good" enough not to get damaged? Does it measure the wielder and decide wither to act or not?

Also, if its a reflection of the heart and looks at the person holding it and not the target, then how can it make a call if Sam is what appears to be a complete robot now?

Sounds pretty sentient to me. Otherwise one needn't bother asking the question.
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Re: New PPGD 9/4/13 - Once More Unto The Breach

Postby Cerulean » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:46 am

Blood Lord wrote:I'm just curious about the specific parameters that it has to make these judgements. How does it know that one person is "more evil" than another? Or that the target is "good" enough not to get damaged? Does it measure the wielder and decide wither to act or not?

I'm curious about it as well. I can dismiss Aku's inability to use the sword as his being evil incarnate (so whatever/whomever he uses the sword on could be viewed as "innocent" compared to him (he was described as evil incarnate on the Samurai Jack wiki)). There's this one episode in particular that sticks in my mind that makes me question the moral compass of the sword. It was the one where Jack was helping the dog people (or something) and he helped them by destroying the beetle robots. There was one who seemed to get scared and tried to run away, but Jack told him "nuh-uh" and proceeded to slice him/it up. It made me wonder whether or not the robots contained some form of artificial intelligence (or possibly even the potential to have feelings). Was Jack wrong for not showing mercy to something that (possibly) would have given up (slim chance of it happening probably, but still a question I wanted to throw out there)? Was he right for slicing up the robot and not taking the chance of the robot coming back for revenge? It brings up a lot of questions.

Although I will admit that I do like this explanation (realized after the fact that it sort of answered my question too):
Tenshi Nova wrote:So in this case, Sam is wielding the sword, the sword would judge her based on if her intentions are righteous or not. Seeing as her main 'function' atm is to beat the PPG our of anger, it probably can't hurt anything. But, if she believes that the bomb detonating would bring out the better good, the sword could be in her favor. Course, only time will tell.


Havoc wrote:She was bleeding a few pages ago.

Was it blood or oil? I couldn't tell from that page.

I had a pretty far-fetched theory. What if it's the Time Squad that reconnects the power to the tower and sets the bomb off? If this Bomb somehow starts off Jack's quest to save the world and prevent the apocalypse, and is also the thing that causes the Time Squad to exist in the first place, then setting it off might be for the greater-good. I know that's not a great theory, but I thought I'd just throw that out there.


I've thought about your theory for a while. If I recall correctly, someone in the last thread page (in comic section) stated that tachyons are released as a result of someone going forward or backward in time. So, if your theory is true, then it is possible that the time squad agent zipped in (somehow activated the bomb) and then proceeded to zip back out (which would have triggered Otto's watch warning at the same time the bomb releases tachyons). Or maybe the agent is already there and only his exit is what triggered the warning. I don't think (more accurately, I am not sure) that Jack is going to go on a quest to prevent the apocalypse (since it happens in a different timeline), but I could get behind the idea that the time squad activates the bomb in order to make sure that the time squad exists (even if the time squad doesn't understand the bomb or the stop gap, the parameter necessary for its (Time Squad) creation must be there).
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Re: New PPGD 9/4/13 - Once More Unto The Breach

Postby Mon-Kitsune » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:58 am

Cerulean wrote:
Blood Lord wrote:I'm just curious about the specific parameters that it has to make these judgements. How does it know that one person is "more evil" than another? Or that the target is "good" enough not to get damaged? Does it measure the wielder and decide wither to act or not?

I'm curious about it as well. I can dismiss Aku's inability to use the sword as his being evil incarnate (so whatever/whomever he uses the sword on could be viewed as "innocent" compared to him (he was described as evil incarnate on the Samurai Jack wiki)). There's this one episode in particular that sticks in my mind that makes me question the moral compass of the sword. It was the one where Jack was helping the dog people (or something) and he helped them by destroying the beetle robots. There was one who seemed to get scared and tried to run away, but Jack told him "nuh-uh" and proceeded to slice him/it up. It made me wonder whether or not the robots contained some form of artificial intelligence (or possibly even the potential to have feelings). Was Jack wrong for not showing mercy to something that (possibly) would have given up (slim chance of it happening probably, but still a question I wanted to throw out there)? Was he right for slicing up the robot and not taking the chance of the robot coming back for revenge? It brings up a lot of questions.

Although I will admit that I do like this explanation (realized after the fact that it sort of answered my question too):


Another questionable one might be the Robo-Shamus; the one with the dog. Here, we have (if I recall) a robot who was doing evil (working for Aku) for a good purpose (keeping his dog alive). The whole episode is set up to make us think that in that case, Jack is wrong to kill the robot. It almost seems as if either the sword can't determine the innocence/guild of machines.
I also have a much nastier theory, that, as the sword was created by the gods, is has built into it an inherent hatred of technology and or any other advancements that might allow man to no longer need the gods. In other words the sword is rabidly anti-progress. It can slice through all of the mechanical being because in it's mind, they are evil by their very existance
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Re: New PPGD 9/4/13 - Once More Unto The Breach

Postby Cerulean » Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:00 pm

Huh, so what you're saying is that it is possible that the gods created the sword so that it not only destroys the ultimate evil (Aku), but also anything that would divide/lessen the worship received by the people? That is a wickedly dark theory, it also makes you wonder whether or not they foresaw the possibility of Jack being sent into the future. Very interesting.

If I remember correctly, wasn't Jack in a state of shock due to all the technological advances that he saw in the future when he first arrived? Perhaps the Samurai Lord's spirit that was used to forge the sword is also in a state of "shock". So it tears down that which it doesn't understand or wish to comprehend. It understood a human, and it understood that it was in the hands of evil, so it didn't cut down Jack when Aku tried to use it on him.
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Re: New PPGD 9/4/13 - Once More Unto The Breach

Postby Tenshi Nova » Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:47 pm

Tenshi Nova wrote:Just a thought. Aku had taken over in the show. I'm sure there are many places that worshiped Aku, some may only be alive because of him. If Jack were to destroy Aku, then it can be said he's also indirectly destroying a few civilization. With families and the like. I believe the episode said that the sword can't cut because of who uses it, not because of who it's targeting.

My meaning is that, Aku never had the intention to help the civilizations he helped, so the sword realizes that. Jack doesn't want to harm what he may be inadvertently harming. So in this case, Sam is wielding the sword, the sword would judge her based on if her intentions are righteous or not. Seeing as her main 'function' atm is to beat the PPG our of anger, it probably can't hurt anything. But, if she believes that the bomb detonating would bring out the better good, the sword could be in her favor. Course, only time will tell.


TL;DR?
The sword judges the user, not the target. If the sword is in the hands of a righteous person, it can hurt anything/anyone. If in the hands of an evil person, it wouldn't even be able to cut butter.

Edit: Jack said that when in the hands of evil, it could never harm an innocent. Never stating what would happen in an event where an innocent tries to harm another innocent.
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Re: New PPGD 9/4/13 - Once More Unto The Breach

Postby Cerulean » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:56 pm

Tenshi Nova wrote:Edit: Jack said that when in the hands of evil, it could never harm an innocent. Never stating what would happen in an event where an innocent tries to harm another innocent.


Which I guess would mean that in ordinary hands it is just a normal sword? Sometimes I wonder whether or not the gods that created the sword put a conditioning spell on the sword, in which case Aku (or any other beings of equal or greater evil) is (are) the only being(s) that cannot use the sword to harm anyone. In which case I guess anyone would be capable of using it (other than Aku).
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Re: New PPGD 9/4/13 - Once More Unto The Breach

Postby CTCFirebird » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:19 pm

Havoc wrote:
CTCFirebird wrote:I really don't think that she would do that. I mean, she would, but imo, I think Bell and Samantha would have such disagreements in this battle against Blossom and Samantha. I'm guessing they would attack each other at some point due to their team up. Heh, who knows!

You mean Sam sacrificing herself. I came up with an idea awhile back. It's highly possible that she's running from something psychologically by making herself a machine. What if after she's defeated, whatever it is she's running from, hits her like a ton of bricks, and she realizes that she'll never achieve what she's trying to achieve by making herself a robot? So out of pure emotional turmoil and frustration, she decides to kill herself and take everyone else with her.

Also, I came up with a theory in the "Comic Updates and News" version of this page. Just I thought I'd just move it here, if anyone is interested:

I wrote:I had a pretty far-fetched theory. What if it's the Time Squad that reconnects the power to the tower and sets the bomb off? If this Bomb somehow starts off Jack's quest to save the world and prevent the apocalypse, and is also the thing that causes the Time Squad to exist in the first place, then setting it off might be for the greater-good. I know that's not a great theory, but I thought I'd just throw that out there.

I actually remember that. I kinda said something like with remorse and stuff a while back myself.

Cerulean wrote:
Blood Lord wrote:I'm just curious about the specific parameters that it has to make these judgements. How does it know that one person is "more evil" than another? Or that the target is "good" enough not to get damaged? Does it measure the wielder and decide wither to act or not?

I'm curious about it as well. I can dismiss Aku's inability to use the sword as his being evil incarnate (so whatever/whomever he uses the sword on could be viewed as "innocent" compared to him (he was described as evil incarnate on the Samurai Jack wiki)). There's this one episode in particular that sticks in my mind that makes me question the moral compass of the sword. It was the one where Jack was helping the dog people (or something) and he helped them by destroying the beetle robots. There was one who seemed to get scared and tried to run away, but Jack told him "nuh-uh" and proceeded to slice him/it up. It made me wonder whether or not the robots contained some form of artificial intelligence (or possibly even the potential to have feelings). Was Jack wrong for not showing mercy to something that (possibly) would have given up (slim chance of it happening probably, but still a question I wanted to throw out there)? Was he right for slicing up the robot and not taking the chance of the robot coming back for revenge? It brings up a lot of questions.

Although I will admit that I do like this explanation (realized after the fact that it sort of answered my question too):
Tenshi Nova wrote:So in this case, Sam is wielding the sword, the sword would judge her based on if her intentions are righteous or not. Seeing as her main 'function' atm is to beat the PPG our of anger, it probably can't hurt anything. But, if she believes that the bomb detonating would bring out the better good, the sword could be in her favor. Course, only time will tell.


Havoc wrote:She was bleeding a few pages ago.

Was it blood or oil? I couldn't tell from that page.

I had a pretty far-fetched theory. What if it's the Time Squad that reconnects the power to the tower and sets the bomb off? If this Bomb somehow starts off Jack's quest to save the world and prevent the apocalypse, and is also the thing that causes the Time Squad to exist in the first place, then setting it off might be for the greater-good. I know that's not a great theory, but I thought I'd just throw that out there.


I've thought about your theory for a while. If I recall correctly, someone in the last thread page (in comic section) stated that tachyons are released as a result of someone going forward or backward in time. So, if your theory is true, then it is possible that the time squad agent zipped in (somehow activated the bomb) and then proceeded to zip back out (which would have triggered Otto's watch warning at the same time the bomb releases tachyons). Or maybe the agent is already there and only his exit is what triggered the warning. I don't think (more accurately, I am not sure) that Jack is going to go on a quest to prevent the apocalypse (since it happens in a different timeline), but I could get behind the idea that the time squad activates the bomb in order to make sure that the time squad exists (even if the time squad doesn't understand the bomb or the stop gap, the parameter necessary for its (Time Squad) creation must be there).

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Re: New PPGD 9/4/13 - Once More Unto The Breach

Postby Exodis » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:51 pm

Wow. Long quote, short response. Bloody hell...

Wait... what if it isn't the bomb that detonated and was simply Bell's rage that emitted an EMP wave that transported everyone to the Moon.
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Re: New PPGD 9/4/13 - Once More Unto The Breach

Postby Havoc » Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:15 am

Randori wrote:Wow. Long quote, short response. Bloody hell...

My thoughts exactly.

Cerulean wrote:Was it blood or oil? I couldn't tell from that page.

I'm pretty sure that was blood.

Tenshi Nova wrote:TL;DR?
The sword judges the user, not the target. If the sword is in the hands of a righteous person, it can hurt anything/anyone. If in the hands of an evil person, it wouldn't even be able to cut butter.

No no. It's not that I didn't read it, I just didn't know how to respond to it. I have a feeling that nothing Samantha isn't doing, is for the greater-good, (or at least not to her knowledge). She just doesn't strike me as "righteous" material. She threaten to bludgeon Blossom to death with Buttercup's corpse for the love of God.

Which I guess would mean that in ordinary hands it is just a normal sword? Sometimes I wonder whether or not the gods that created the sword put a conditioning spell on the sword, in which case Aku (or any other beings of equal or greater evil) is (are) the only being(s) that cannot use the sword to harm anyone. In which case I guess anyone would be capable of using it (other than Aku).

I had that thought too. If "evil" only meant someone like Aku, but for any human, it's fair game.

I've thought about your theory for a while. If I recall correctly, someone in the last thread page (in comic section) stated that tachyons are released as a result of someone going forward or backward in time. So, if your theory is true, then it is possible that the time squad agent zipped in (somehow activated the bomb) and then proceeded to zip back out (which would have triggered Otto's watch warning at the same time the bomb releases tachyons). Or maybe the agent is already there and only his exit is what triggered the warning. I don't think (more accurately, I am not sure) that Jack is going to go on a quest to prevent the apocalypse (since it happens in a different timeline), but I could get behind the idea that the time squad activates the bomb in order to make sure that the time squad exists (even if the time squad doesn't understand the bomb or the stop gap, the parameter necessary for its (Time Squad) creation must be there).

Well we've already been told that it's Jack that stops the events in GT from happening. I have a strong feeling that the Time Squad will be helping him out. I wonder if once Otto was transported back to Time Squad HQ, he was told about the Bomb, so he went back and detonated himself. However, There's always the possibility that someone else used time travel to set the bomb off. Someone not even connected to the Time Squad.
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Re: New PPGD 9/4/13 - Once More Unto The Breach

Postby Cerulean » Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:25 am

Havoc wrote:Well we've already been told that it's Jack that stops the events in GT from happening.

I interpreted that as Jack causing the split without being aware of the fact that his actions have caused the timelines to diverge. It wouldn't make much sense for Jack (PPGD) to try to prevent an apocalypse that is occurring in a different timeline since certain events have already unfolded in a different manner. Not to mention that we still don't know what caused the split in the timeline (BeeAre said that it happened in Jack's past, and that it will be addressed in his side story (so we haven't seen what caused the split yet)). Jack probably was the catalyst for the split, however, I don't believe that he took an active (as in he actively tried to prevent one timeline from experiencing the same fate as the other) role in causing the split. I'm leaning more towards the probability that the butterfly effect will play a big part in it. I could be wrong though.

Havoc wrote: I have a strong feeling that the Time Squad will be helping him out.


I don't think (more like "I'm not sure") that the Time Squad is aware of what is happening (or has happened) in the GT timeline. BeeAre said that the Time Squad doesn't exist in the GT timeline, so I dont think that they will actively attempt to change anything that doesn't have to do with the current timeline.

I like the idea of Otto jumping to the future (post explosion), only to have returned (pre explosion) in order to detonate the bomb. However, I feel that it might create some weird paradox (just a feeling, I don't have anything definite to justify it at the moment (plus I'm really tired)). Maybe it will end up being one of his other squad members (if true).
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Re: New PPGD 9/4/13 - Once More Unto The Breach

Postby Tenshi Nova » Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:47 am

Jack's theories keep reminding of Steins;Gate.
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Re: New PPGD 9/4/13 - Once More Unto The Breach

Postby BeeAre » Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:47 pm

Please, when quoting people, try to only quote what you think is relevant if your response is short.

Also: Tenshi. What is the plot of Stein's Gate?
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Re: New PPGD 9/4/13 - Once More Unto The Breach

Postby Tenshi Nova » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:08 pm

Plot? A small group of people that started off trying to understand time travel, but somethings that have happened which caused a lot of drama. But the reasons I'm reminded of it when Jack comes up, examples being...
Time travel.
Jumping between different timelines.
The people are basically the same through out each timeline.
Butterfly Effect, like crazy.
The main character is the only one that retains memories of the alternates.
A certain organization that's implied to understand what's happening to a certain extent; existing in one, but not the other!
And the biggest thing is, there was a character that traveled through time, and couldn't return to their original. Tho, the situations are really different.

It's a but hard to talk about, bcuz Steins;Gate is one of those anime, where if you try to talk about, it's hard to avoid spoilers. I had a hard time trying to list these, and they already spoil a handful of things.

G'night! I'll be on late tomorrow because of some extra classes. Wednesdays are going to more long and drawn out ones...4 hours of English classes. yaaaaaaaay......
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Re: New PPGD 9/4/13 - Once More Unto The Breach

Postby CTCFirebird » Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:53 pm

Sorry about that. I actually had a good reason to do that. I was losing internet/WiFi connection on my MacBook Pro. If I had to type something up or do whatever, I had to do fast or else I'd lose connection and have to keep rebooting my Mac over and over again. Don't worry, I got the situation resolved now so that won't happen again. Though it was an AirPort issue, but something else caused it to happen. Also, I had other things to take care of in personal life so I didn't want nothing getting in the way by keep dwelling on my Mac problems. So yeah, in the future, it won't happen again. Unless... It was something like this.

Anyways, back on topic!

About Stein's Gate and Jack's theories, it's somewhat similar, but not too much.
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