Philosophy Thread

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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby noxux » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:37 pm

I'm ok with the topic.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Vegedus » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:23 pm

Interesting. Fundamentally, I believe humans are mostly stupid, instinct-driven animals, prone to follow their immediate urges no matter how bad it is for them. We have the capacity to think long-term, to act ethical or healthily, but we only do so 5 % of the time. If paternalism can help us overcome this, inconvenience or restrict us away from inherently bad choices, I'm a lot for it.

It's still a very case-by-case thing, I'll just say that I'm generally for it. Like the organ donor thing, I think that's super cool and wish it was on by default here. I only managed to overcome my laziness and forgetfulness and sign myself up recently. A significant amount people have properly died simply because people hadn't been informed or 'never got around to' signing themselves up as organ donors, and that's just not okay. Affecting people simple through convenience or inconvenience, fuck yeah. Things like steam and iTunes have shown us that works.

It gets trickier when you get into things like directly restricting people's lifestyle choices. And paternalism often becomes downright unfeasible, ineffective, against issues that the populace are least resistant to. Like alcohol, for instance. Any way you quantify it, alcohol is a terror on society, responsible for much violence, death and rape. Yet prohibition doesn't work, we know that much. Yet, even if it did, should we do it? The unquantifiable boons of it are just that, but not insignificant. I don't care that much about freedom for freedoms sake, but I do care about people living happy lives, which having the occasional drink may just add to. But then comes the even thornier issue of how to measure joy against pain, where I'll just say that not everything should be sacrificed in the name of safety.

So, I do believe we shouldn't legislate where it has no effect. As obvious as that sounds, it still seems to happen. Just look at what the war on drugs have done to mexico. While here we have gang wars between bikers and immigrants over the marijuana market, which legislating could probably fix. Prostitution, same thing, as so many others, though I'm wondering if I'm drifting from the subject of paternalism now. Definitely getting into politics, but as I said, it's hard to talk about in general, it has to be determined on a case-by-case basis.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Hallow Nova » Thu Aug 01, 2013 2:37 am

Randori wrote:I'll just comment on the videos.
Baby swimming: Why do I always laugh at 0:19, when the baby falls in the pool? Fuckin' hilarious.
Flexable gymnast: I'd like to show her a few moves, if ya know what I mean.

Also, another reason why I fucking hate Justin Beiber and his fucking tween fans:

Oh god, shoot me.

Philosophy thread, I ask you, if no one minds.
What the fuck is wrong with these types of people?

I being a bit serious when I ask this. Excuses can be made, but there are people like this. All I ask is why and how?
Personally I think it's the insane desire to belong to something, poor upbringing, and/or a mentally unstable connection that was made irrationally(by my opinion anyways).
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Exodis » Thu Aug 01, 2013 2:43 am

HOW THE FUCK DID I END UP HERE??
False alarm! I thought I accidently posted that post in this thread. It was just Tenshi quoting me. Carry on.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby noxux » Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:55 pm

@EM If paternalism is to think counciouslly then is good to have those but also it can be a waist of time, thinking counciouslly takes a great time for some people and if we or the people think counciouslly all the time we will be waisting big part of the life in thinking than doing the stufff of what we are thinking.
@Tenshi *sigh* I don't know man, just some people...
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Rival » Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:08 pm

Tenshi, I've participated in circlejerking just like anyone. But let us please not turn this thread into one of them "Hey that group to which none of us belongs, sure sucks and is filled with stupid people" circlejerks. Very poor choice of topic for this thread, it's completely unfitting. The only plus point is that now I'm aware of a post where Randori asks to be shot. Possible future quoting fun to be had.
Vegedus wrote: in general, it has to be determined on a case-by-case basis.

Agreed entirely and that goes for country wide policies, but since EM asked about paternalism in general, I'll explain how I feel about it in most cases.
Vegedus wrote:Interesting. Fundamentally, I believe humans are mostly stupid, instinct-driven animals

Our thought process starts similarily, but we reach different conclusions, I believe too much paternalism encourages people to embrace being stupid, instinct-driven animals, which is why I'm against it in most cases.

There are some exceptions such as the seatbelt enforcing, where the benefit is undeniable, but living in a country that has many paternalistic inclinations and which had an authoritarian government for 44 years I do draw a parallel between paternalism and the tendecy towards authoritarianism. Here's why I dislike it:

1) It leads to a populace that expects the government to make all the important decisions and expects it to save them every time they make a mistake. No, I'm not talking about reasonable stuff like free health care, so here's an example.Amber Gold was a company in Poland whose founder was previously charged many times with fraud, the company encouraged people, mostly old retired ones, to invest money in it, promising to multiiply it within 5 or 10 years with "smart investments in Gold and Platinum". The company was legal, but news bulletins and financial analytics warned that to gain the promised amount for its clients it'd have to invest the money in high risk scenarios. Of course the company eventually, 4 years after its creation, went bankrupt and its clients, mostly old people raised during the communist era, immediately demanded that the government repay them the full amount of their invested money. Because it was the government's fault that it was legal for such a company to exist in the first place, most people when asked if they read the warnings in the news bullentins that Amber Gold was a high risk gamble that's bound to collapse, said that they didn't think of reading such stuff or paid it no heed, since the company was legal so it had to be ok.

2) Paternalism can be abused and/or go hand-in-hand with outright lies. In the 80's the communist block had no colour television, and it was common knowledge the west had a colour tv in almost every home by now. The communist block countries didn't have the money/technology to produce colour tv efficiently on a mass scale, but didn't want to allow importing such goods, since it'd foster the belief that the west has it better. So they announced it to be scientifically proven that colour tv radiation causes cancer and that watching it a lot causes blindness, to explain why they "don't allow" importing such goods. This has consequences to this day, years after it has been proven to be lies I was next to an old lady in line at a supermarket, while she was explaining to her friend how she'll never buy an LCD tv because "The colours are more vivid, so they probably have an even higher cancer risk".

3) In the modern state and given the complicated world we live in due to the processes of globalization. the concept of national interest (raison d'État) seems outdated and so more and more examples of paternalism are morally subjective decisions and/or the result of lobbying of interest groups. See British porn opt-in policy which is both morally subjective and the result of heavy lobbying. The political ruling class isn't exactly well versed in scientific questions and doesn't exactly have a tendency to aim for long term futuristic goals. So trusting paternalism to push humanity forward seems naive to me.
Last edited by Rival on Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Hallow Nova » Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:23 pm

I don't remember calling them stupid. I thought it would fit well, the example was just out of place. I was more referring to the mentality these people possess and how it came to be. I can't think of a way to discuss a thing without insulting them, but I wonder how people can be so close minded.

Yea, yea, yea...human nature...blah, blah, blah(I'm not against talking like this, I wanted to talk like this). I assumed that this thread is where discussing things in such a manner was accepted.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Exodis » Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:43 am

Rival wrote:The only plus point is that now I'm aware of a post where Randori asks to be shot. Possible future quoting fun to be had.

Oh shut up, it was a figure of speech.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Blood Lord » Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:55 am

Randori wrote:
Rival wrote:The only plus point is that now I'm aware of a post where Randori asks to be shot. Possible future quoting fun to be had.

Oh shut up, it was a figure of speech.

*lowers rifle.

Damn. All well, maybe next time.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby noxux » Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:05 pm

Well we get of topic there. Paternalism isn't getting much chat so I find something really interesting: Does the planet X exists? (For the ones that dosen't know Planet X is the planet of megaman X, nah is a planet that has revolve the sun once before the planets were formed and if it revolves again around the sun it can destroy all the solar system)
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Rival » Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:21 pm

Oy vey, noxux. So far you've been my favorite newbie in a while. Oh well, we live and get disappointed.

That question has nothing to do with philosophy, but to answer your question, no, Planet X is a pseudo-scientific hoax.

It's like asking if the Earth is the centre of the Universe.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby noxux » Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:28 pm

First wow I'm your favvorite newb?
Second Rival you should post a topic because you're one of the smartest I have met with EM and Vegadus.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Rival » Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:14 pm

Well, I was implying you were, but that you lost that status by bringing up Planet X, but it was meant as a facetious joke, so don't worry about it.

I'm not smart compared to guys like say Sentios or Q.U. who have knowledge that's actually useful to society, meaning STEM fields. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STEM_fields

As for suggesting a topic, I'm a passive guy who responds to stuff rather than actively suggests topics.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby noxux » Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:08 am

Well let's continue with with paternalism.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby noxux » Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:44 am

Another topic, how the earth and the people on it will change if the land and ocean were inverted(if land was ocean and ocean was land)?
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Hallow Nova » Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:03 am

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Thought this may help a bit.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Wulfespinndel » Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:44 pm

That is so cool. Funny how it reminds me of the four nations from Avatar.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Exodis » Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:13 am

Bermuda City must be littered with "MISSING" posters.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Rival » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:50 am

The arbitrary and stupid naming of the Western Hemisphere Oceans in honour of two single countries while the Eastern Hemisphere Oceans keep their continental names, suggests the map was made by an American or a Brazilian.
Bellorosso del Fiore wrote:That is so cool. Funny how it reminds me of the four nations from Avatar.

I guess you have small reference pools. HA! Get it? I made a funny. Cause pools are filled with water and Oceans are bodies of water, and the Oceans on that map are small.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Hallow Nova » Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:31 am

I didn't look at the map closely, the only problem I found with it was 'United Ocean", unless the thought process was that all the islands within it had come together. I say a Brazilian drew it, due to the fact the only castles I noticed are around the Brazilian Ocean.

One last point, Rival, it's better than naming them the North and South American Oceans. Just my opinion c:
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby GrimlyLoveGunner » Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:22 pm

Oh, philosophy thread. Hm. For me, there are so many different people in the world with so many different beliefs that it's just logically impossible for any one of them to be true. So, in reply, I'll just assume anything is possible. There's something special out there, but I don't feel the need for it to have a name. Just live life, love, make others happy. And all that fluffy kitten stuff.

Also, my Grandma fully believes God is an alien.

As for this:

Tenshi Nova wrote:
Randori wrote:I'll just comment on the videos.
Baby swimming: Why do I always laugh at 0:19, when the baby falls in the pool? Fuckin' hilarious.
Flexable gymnast: I'd like to show her a few moves, if ya know what I mean.

Also, another reason why I fucking hate Justin Beiber and his fucking tween fans:

Oh god, shoot me.

Philosophy thread, I ask you, if no one minds.
What the fuck is wrong with these types of people?

I being a bit serious when I ask this. Excuses can be made, but there are people like this. All I ask is why and how?
Personally I think it's the insane desire to belong to something, poor upbringing, and/or a mentally unstable connection that was made irrationally(by my opinion anyways).


I am 99.97 percent sure all of those people are actors. (It should be obvious, actually, do they even say so? because I got bored in my certainty.) 00.03 percent sure I should find a rusty spade to drive through my heart because life isn't worth living anymore.

Yeah, there are people like this. They're called ignorant teenagers/elders who don't give a shit. They'll figure out they're idiots soon enough... Hopefully. But arguing just makes them call you ugly.

But anyway.

There's my piece. Running off now.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Sumdumguy » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:59 pm

I'm gonna say it here and now, I'm still in highschool so I've had direct experience with stupid teenage girls and will have.that experience next month. I actually saw a girl write "Bieber" as her last name on a registration form for choir, instead of her actual last name. I fuggin hate people. Also, there are two boy bands that are very big right now. One Direction and Big Time Rush (I have a friend that loves the.first one and my sister talks about both of them a LOT). But what's wrong with them? Why do they love them so much?

Hormones, ignorance and their parents didn't raise them right. That's the only thing I can think of on the spot.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Exodis » Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:18 pm

Sumdumguy wrote:Hormones, ignorance and their parents didn't raise them right. That's the only thing I can think of on the spot.

Pretty much. What I hate most is how people overreact when others talk badly about their "idols". Death threats, rude remarks, hell they would even bash celebrities with horrible remarks like "You're a horrible actor/actress!" or "Shut up you fugly piece of shit!"
Let me remind you that most of the fanbases of these boybands/beiber are in middle school. I mean really, grow the fuck up.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Whatis6times9 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:27 pm

This isn't new to you under 20 somethings. As someone who is old enough to remember when NSYNC and Backstreet Boys were a big deal, this happens with every generation of 10-20 year old girls. And for some of the more extreme reactions look at the way gaming fans have been behaving about everything over the past few months, they're no better.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby noxux » Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:29 pm

Damn I hate when people overreact about stuff like that, when someone says "I don't like beiber" and the fan says that is going to kill you or that you don't know about music, I just can't tolerate it. Luckly I don't know many people like this and with the gamers they act like little kids.
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