Philosophy Thread

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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Tenshi Nova » Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:40 pm

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I personally think one's belief is just another way to see what kind of person they are. Doesn't matter what they are, just how they go about it.

Eastern cultures have a strange tendency to abuse tentacles more than Western cultures.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby EagleMan » Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:20 pm

Bello let me get this straight: you're annoyed that the things we're talking about, such as free will, the nature of consciousness and being "you", among other things, don't count as philosophy, but you then deflect to how the Eastern and Western world views comic book superheroes differently? There was also plenty of discussion of life and death, and even NDEs, and especially of mind.

I'll watch that bit later as I have the time but honestly what you said just seems silly to me. If you're bored with what we were talking about and want to have your own topic discussed that's perfectly fine but it was plenty on topic.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Wulfespinndel » Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:13 pm

EagleMan wrote:Bello let me get this straight: you're annoyed that the things we're talking about, such as free will, the nature of consciousness and being "you", among other things, don't count as philosophy, but you then deflect to how the Eastern and Western world views comic book superheroes differently? There was also plenty of discussion of life and death, and even NDEs, and especially of mind.

I'll watch that bit later as I have the time but honestly what you said just seems silly to me. If you're bored with what we were talking about and want to have your own topic discussed that's perfectly fine but it was plenty on topic.


It is silly I suppose. However, I'm not annoyed at all (I apologize for giving you that impression), and I'm open minded to any discussion here. The Free Will and Consciousness discussions are philosophical. No Science, Religious, or Philosophical discussions should ever be annoying, but if it goes on for too long it ends up being tiresome instead.

I felt that Science started getting in the way at some point in the thread, and that the thread didn't have a consistent flow of discussion. Before my post, you and I were talking about Free Will right? And then all of a sudden we're jumping to Language. We're not getting anywhere here at all since the discussions we had here so far are quite short and very general but that's just me.

And when it came to some topics, I felt that maybe not all of us were interested. That's why I tried to be more creative with my post, and twists some things here and there. It's the best I can do to contribute but I'm trying...actually forget it. I'm going to stop posting in the thread, I'm getting a headache.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby noxux » Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:35 pm

Then I should apologize for interrupting your topic Bellroso so continue with free will.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Wulfespinndel » Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:44 pm

noxux wrote:Then I should apologize for interrupting your topic Bellroso so continue with free will.

Actually, why don't we just start over with another topic instead? My topic is too crude I'm afraid.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby noxux » Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:00 pm

Bellorosso del Fiore wrote:
noxux wrote:Then I should apologize for interrupting your topic Bellroso so continue with free will.

Actually, why don't we just start over with another topic instead? My topic is too crude I'm afraid.

Are you sure?
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Wulfespinndel » Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:18 pm

Yes. I will be reading for the rest of the thread.

Who wants to start?
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby noxux » Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:52 pm

Hmm I have 2 topics people choose which one.
1: Are we alone in this universe?
2: Is there a parallel universe?
Bellroso you need to post, this thread needs your opinion as many others.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Rival » Sat Jul 20, 2013 2:58 pm

Bell, while it's true that some posts in this thread were more along the topic of theology and theoretical scientific possibilities (which btw. can be very related, Western philosophy was, and still is, under huge influence of Augustus of Hippo who was first and foremost a theologian, and nothing impacted early 20th century philosophical debates more than social darwinist policies) raher than bare bones philosophy. Your idea of fixing it was what exactly?

Linking a guy who's most well known for playing a vampire in a low-budget dub, talking about superheroes (currently one of the most overdone topics on the Net) during an interview at a con in Tampa with an attendace of 8000 people, and somewhat touching on the difference between the East and West, in an effort to "improve" this thread? What? Seriously, worst idea I saw this month.
noxux wrote:I think better change subject not for the topic but for how people think about this.
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I think he meant "Do human made languages allow us to communicate better than animals do?". Is that correct noxux?

If so, my answer is, animals communicate feelings and emotions better among themselves, but the human languages are better, and in fact necessary, to communicate specific and complicated tasks. Given the success of our species so far, the latter seems more important.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby noxux » Sat Jul 20, 2013 3:14 pm

Yes Rival that what I meant.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby EagleMan » Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:53 pm

noxux wrote:Hmm I have 2 topics people choose which one.
1: Are we alone in this universe?
2: Is there a parallel universe?
Bellroso you need to post, this thread needs your opinion as many others.

No. It's practically a statistical assurance that we are not alone. Whether we ever meet other intelligent life is another thing, due to the scale of the universe and the speed of light (many galaxies race away from each other at a difference that is greater than the speed of light, so it will be literally impossible to go to some galaxies).

And there might be infinite alternate universes, there might not be. Currently some high end theoretical science suggests there may be, but it's not conclusive yet, nor may it ever be. So the best answer for that is "maybe". If we're talking about one singular parallel universe though, the answer would be no. It's more likely there are near infinite alternative universes than just one single alternate universe.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Wulfespinndel » Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:09 pm

Rival wrote:Bell, while it's true that some posts in this thread were more along the topic of theology and theoretical scientific possibilities (which btw. can be very related, Western philosophy was, and still is, under huge influence of Augustus of Hippo who was first and foremost a theologian, and nothing impacted early 20th century philosophical debates more than social darwinist policies) raher than bare bones philosophy. Your idea of fixing it was what exactly?

Linking a guy who's most well known for playing a vampire in a low-budget dub, talking about superheroes (currently one of the most overdone topics on the Net) during an interview at a con in Tampa with an attendace of 8000 people, and somewhat touching on the difference between the East and West, in an effort to "improve" this thread? What? Seriously, worst idea I saw this month.

Yeah, I don't understand what I did either. But hey I'm not talking anymore. You guys can go on with the thread now.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Vegedus » Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:19 pm

I kinda forgot to follow up on my question, sorry. Eagleman mostly said it anywho. Little to add to what has already been said about alternate dimensions and alien life, too. We need more disagreeing!

As Rival points out, there's not a clear cut line between philosophy and science. Historically, philosophy is a receding territory that has given way to science, as it enables us to actual know things as opposed to just thinking, philosophizing about them. Like, take the subject of free will. A popular topic of philosophy for ages, no doubt. But someday we may actually understand the brain fully. Someday we may be able to cut it open and point to where it is, or isn't. Same thing with the "self" as was also a topic. There will always be things we cannot know, things we cannot test, things we can only think about, but philosophy gives way for science and the two are inexorably linked.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Wulfespinndel » Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:52 pm

Vegedus wrote:As Rival points out, there's not a clear cut line between philosophy and science. Historically, philosophy is a receding territory that has given way to science, as it enables us to actual know things as opposed to just thinking, philosophizing about them. Like, take the subject of free will. A popular topic of philosophy for ages, no doubt. But someday we may actually understand the brain fully. Someday we may be able to cut it open and point to where it is, or isn't. Same thing with the "self" as was also a topic. There will always be things we cannot know, things we cannot test, things we can only think about, but philosophy gives way for science and the two are inexorably linked.

This makes sense. Thank you for clarifying.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby noxux » Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:06 pm

Vegedus wrote:I kinda forgot to follow up on my question, sorry. Eagleman mostly said it anywho. Little to add to what has already been said about alternate dimensions and alien life, too. We need more disagreeing!

As Rival points out, there's not a clear cut line between philosophy and science. Historically, philosophy is a receding territory that has given way to science, as it enables us to actual know things as opposed to just thinking, philosophizing about them. Like, take the subject of free will. A popular topic of philosophy for ages, no doubt. But someday we may actually understand the brain fully. Someday we may be able to cut it open and point to where it is, or isn't. Same thing with the "self" as was also a topic. There will always be things we cannot know, things we cannot test, things we can only think about, but philosophy gives way for science and the two are inexorably linked.


Well, this makes sense. Vegadus I will ask you this but everyone can answer, if there is nothing that science can test ,in the past time, how society will be nowdays?
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby EagleMan » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:40 am

Can you reword that?
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Rival » Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:50 am

Vegedus wrote:I kinda forgot to follow up on my question, sorry. Eagleman mostly said it anywho. Little to add to what has already been said about alternate dimensions and alien life, too. We need more disagreeing!

As Rival points out, there's not a clear cut line between philosophy and science. Historically, philosophy is a receding territory that has given way to science, as it enables us to actual know things as opposed to just thinking, philosophizing about them. Like, take the subject of free will. A popular topic of philosophy for ages, no doubt. But someday we may actually understand the brain fully. Someday we may be able to cut it open and point to where it is, or isn't. Same thing with the "self" as was also a topic. There will always be things we cannot know, things we cannot test, things we can only think about, but philosophy gives way for science and the two are inexorably linked.

I pretty much agree entirely, except I'd change the terms somewhat. It's not so much science replacing philosophy, it's more the scientific method replacing heuristic methods. Most philosophers in ancient times and the middle ages had some interest in scientific questions, except they rarely if ever conducted experiments (Plato believed testing everything meant a lack of faith in your own conclusions), so they used heuristics to come up with theories. Thus we kinda associate philosophy with a heuristic approach to scientific questions, but it doesn't have to be linked to it. Stuff like ethics, epistemology or ontology will always require philosophy, so it's more correct to say what receded due to scientific achievements is the use of heuristics.

noxux wrote:Well, this makes sense. Vegadus I will ask you this but everyone can answer, if there is nothing that science can test ,in the past time, how society will be nowdays?

EagleMan wrote:Can you reword that?

I think he means "How would the world and society be different nowadays, if we didn't have the ability to scientifically test things in the past". Is that correct noxux?

That's pretty much unanswerable if you mean every form of science. Since even the earliest civilizations studied things like astronomy and meteorology. If you mean without the scientific method, then imagine society from the early middle ages, except add a few things that can be discovered without intense research and/or by accident.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby noxux » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:49 am

Let's see if if this is better, How would the world and society will be (in this time) if there never do any important scientific discovery in history? Example Galileo and the telescope or Neil Armstrong going to the moon or finding the constellations.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby YesterdaysLingo » Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:15 am

Close minded and simplistic.

Wouldn't we evolve to the extent that we'd be physically superior apes? The lack of invention would leave us to act only on natural tendencies of survival. Static intellect.

But only if natural selection progressed in the manner of physical attributes and not intellectual... I guess.

Idk.

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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Tuor » Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:21 am

YesterdaysLingo wrote:Wouldn't we evolve to the extent that we'd be physically superior apes?

At first I wasn't sure what you were trying to say here...were you suggesting that without these intellectual developments we would have developed physically instead?
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby YesterdaysLingo » Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:53 am

Correct.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby noxux » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:34 am

Hmmm monkeys with steroids. But what about the evolution just with the same terms (no important scientific events.)
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby EagleMan » Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:38 am

Humans actually physically devolved throughout our evolution. An average chimpanzee can beat an average person to death easily. We sacrificed our strength for increased dexterity, allowing us to use tools better and have very fine precision control over them. Our jaw became weaker and smaller as we harnessed fire and softened up meat, which gave us more room for our brain to grow. It seems increased dexterity and intelligence was a winning combo over strength. A rock will just about do the trick for bashing someone's head in, and throwing a spear or shooting an arrow at a melee opponent who hasn't yet closed the distance is incredibly effective, and safe.

At any rate, if we remove technological progress, humans would've evolved even less than they have today in the past 2000 years, because technology has allowed us to both travel far and wide and reproduce like crazy, which means more mutations, and different groups of people coming into contact with each other and having novel children.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby noxux » Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:53 pm

Well this thead need a new topic, any ideas?
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby EagleMan » Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:52 am

What does everyone think about paternalism?

To give examples, that'd be something like in New York where they banned sodas bigger than 0.5 liters being sold at places like sports stadiums and food carts. You can still buy another soda, it'd just be more inconvenient for you without you necessarily having your freedom restricted. Another example would be automatically signing you up as an organ donor (which is an option in the US for those getting their license, not sure if that's the case elsewhere). So it'd be changing the system from default out to default in, based on the assumption that people tend to just go with whatever the default option is (which people do), so in this case the government would be nudging people towards a certain option.

Paternalism is also things like making people wear seat belts or helmets. To what extent, if any, does a government have to act like this in the name of safety for its citizens? Even if it makes it inconvenient for a person to express their freedoms, or even outright restricts it in certain cases.
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