Philosophy Thread

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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Mir@k » Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:38 pm

Bellorosso del Fiore wrote:you guys sound nuts to me right now.
"how do i philosophy"

I think the convo was interesting, but if you think this then feel free to propose your less nutty topic.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Wulfespinndel » Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:17 am

Uh no that was in terms of the aliens and Jesus thing...don't want to turn this thread into some sort of conspiracy theory thread, that stuff belongs on my radio's Coast to Coast AM channel.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby MERASMUS! » Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:29 am

Why cant we talk about jesus being an alien?
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Blood Lord » Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:43 am

Because its going no where. You got most of the forum being atheists and agnostics, a few semi-religious people, ever fewer religious people, and a hardcore Mormon. not exactly a subject that everyone wants to jump on and tackle.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Mir@k » Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:04 am

Religious people with brains will usually hide their religious status, while agnostics and atheists seem like they are waiting for someone to slightly mention the word for them to jump going MEMEMEMEME. Not all of ocurse, there are crazies in both sides, but in this forum at least i know there are various religious people who've maintained their religiousness to themselves.

What do you think of that? I personally think that's a good way of keeping your beliefs intact.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Wulfespinndel » Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:07 am

Blood Lord wrote:Because its going no where. You got most of the forum being atheists and agnostics, a few semi-religious people, ever fewer religious people, and a hardcore Mormon. not exactly a subject that everyone wants to jump on and tackle.


Mormon? Who is a Mormon here in this place? I don't hang out much here.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Creppy Eggy » Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:09 am

Blord's a Mormon, dude.
As I saw the creature, I was as white as an egg. I was so scared I might crack from fear. As the humanoid began to lunge after me, I was walking on egg shells from how scared I was. It grabbed me, took me to its station, and cracked me open. The last thing I saw were my yellow insides cooked on a pan. Human nature is as evil as a rotten egg.


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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Wulfespinndel » Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:49 am

Egh, Blord.

So Blood Lord is Mormon? That's cool.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Mir@k » Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:25 am

I once met a man who was part of the Order of Knight Masons. what he told me about his religion made me feel so much pity for him, all the restrictions imposed upon them make me feel like they aren't even living.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby EagleMan » Sun Jun 16, 2013 3:00 am

Mir@k wrote:I once met a man who was part of the Order of Knight Masons. what he told me about his religion made me feel so much pity for him, all the restrictions imposed upon them make me feel like they aren't even living.

Eh, on some level most of them must be fine with it. I have many restrictions and rules for myself despite a lack of religion and spirituality.

Sentios wrote:Supposing we had the technology to replace your organic brain with a computer that could exactly duplicate the effects of it's functions (your thoughts, subconscious rhythms, it was capable of changing it's structure to accommodate learning/Neuroplasticity, etc) would you still be you?

Nope. The continuity of consciousness would be broken. An exact twin might take my place, but we do not refer to identical twins as being one and the same person. Even identical twins differ in some respects you might say, but let's say they are both exactly the same. Are they the same person? Most people would probably say no. You could swap their brains. How would you decide who is who now? Would you track it by the body or the brain? The brain, I would say.

To imagine it another way to keep the premise the same, imagine you went in for an experiment and were put under anesthesia. When you wake up, an exact clone of you has been made - but how do you know who is who? Neither of you know who is the original. There are 2 of you now. Were you 2 people all along? No. Clearly not. The 2 yous get into a fight and the original dies. The original existed past when his copy was made - so clearly he was still "him", but now the clone can easily assume his place in life. But you're dead. The clone is alive. You are dead and your consciousness is gone. So clearly that other thing is not truly "you" in the meaningful sense - the sense being that your consciousness is continued.

On a practical level, it doesn't really matter for everyone else, this new person replaces exactly the role you served for them (friend, spouse, etc.). But it does for you, because you're dead.

This also has disturbing implications for the casual use of transport technology in Star Trek. Every time you use the beams, you are effectively destroyed and then recreated elsewhere. Every time they step into a transporter, that person dies, and they have a perfect copy replaced elsewhere. But no one really cares, because that perfect copy fulfills that old person's role in everyone's lives exactly the same. The TNG episode where it's revealed 2 Rikers were made in a transporter accident most eloquently addresses this issue.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Vegedus » Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:03 am

Yup, that.
Mir@k wrote:Religious people with brains will usually hide their religious status, while agnostics and atheists seem like they are waiting for someone to slightly mention the word for them to jump going MEMEMEMEME. Not all of ocurse, there are crazies in both sides, but in this forum at least i know there are various religious people who've maintained their religiousness to themselves.

What do you think of that? I personally think that's a good way of keeping your beliefs intact.

Well, if keeping your beliefs intact is a good thing, sure. I'd say the purpose behind discourse is precisely to challenge beliefs. It's about presenting different ideas and finding out which is true. Granted, as people are more dedicated to being right than finding the truth, they are inclined to challenge everyone else's belief without even considering their own could be wrong. With religion, there's that much more incentive to firmly believe in your own viewpoint to the exclusion of all else. Hence why those discussions are often woe-fully unproductive and avoiding flame-baiting by flaunting a controversial opinion is probably not a bad idea. But prioritizing "keeping your beliefs intact" just sounds like keeping a closed mind to me.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Sentios » Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:27 am

EagleMan wrote:Nope. The continuity of consciousness would be broken.

The problem with this argument is humans lose their higher level consciousness every time they go to sleep, effectively this means what you are saying could be taken to mean 'everyday you are a different person'. I don't have any real qualms with that statement but then changing to a new brain like I've described loses all of it's philosophical cons.

An exact twin might take my place, but we do not refer to identical twins as being one and the same person. Even identical twins differ in some respects you might say, but let's say they are both exactly the same. Are they the same person? Most people would probably say no. You could swap their brains. How would you decide who is who now? Would you track it by the body or the brain? The brain, I would say.


Identical twins do not have completely identical experiences, their neural pathways are thus differently developed and make them not really interchangeable as people. Even something as simple as naming them as different people would lead towards them having unique egos. They are different people because their brains are physically separate from each other and have no direct link by which to share experience.

To imagine it another way to keep the premise the same, imagine you went in for an experiment and were put under anesthesia. When you wake up, an exact clone of you has been made - but how do you know who is who? Neither of you know who is the original. There are 2 of you now. Were you 2 people all along? No. Clearly not. The 2 yous get into a fight and the original dies. The original existed past when his copy was made - so clearly he was still "him", but now the clone can easily assume his place in life. But you're dead. The clone is alive. You are dead and your consciousness is gone. So clearly that other thing is not truly "you" in the meaningful sense - the sense being that your consciousness is continued.


I'm sure you know that cloning doesn't work that way, even ignoring you having a full grown clone in a few hours the brain itself is not replicated through the process of cloning. The technicalities aside, this is exactly like the above example. You and your clone are different people because you're brains are not connected, your experiences are not identical copies of each other. Even if the cloning process could copy memory up until the point you went to sleep into the clone, the experience diverges once two separate physical bodies awaken.

This also has disturbing implications for the casual use of transport technology in Star Trek. Every time you use the beams, you are effectively destroyed and then recreated elsewhere. Every time they step into a transporter, that person dies, and they have a perfect copy replaced elsewhere. But no one really cares, because that perfect copy fulfills that old person's role in everyone's lives exactly the same. The TNG episode where it's revealed 2 Rikers were made in a transporter accident most eloquently addresses this issue.


I'd simply say that, transport accidents aside, transporting is no different from going to sleep in regards to consciousness.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Vegedus » Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:04 am

I don't think consciousness == being awake, in this case. It's more the sense of self, your identity that is stake. Whatever we call that we are so afraid of losing when we die. You can lose any part of yourself, a limb, your body, your intellect, but you're still you, right? Our consciousness is the thing that is us, perhaps hidden somewhere in the brain, or in our non-physical soul if you're religious. That thing presumably does not disappear when we sleep. One could argue that it does, but then, then sleep is just as terrible as death, the person that wakes won't be 'you'.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Sentios » Sun Jun 16, 2013 3:29 pm

Vegedus wrote:I don't think consciousness == being awake, in this case. It's more the sense of self, your identity that is stake. Whatever we call that we are so afraid of losing when we die. You can lose any part of yourself, a limb, your body, your intellect, but you're still you, right? Our consciousness is the thing that is us, perhaps hidden somewhere in the brain, or in our non-physical soul if you're religious. That thing presumably does not disappear when we sleep. One could argue that it does, but then, then sleep is just as terrible as death, the person that wakes won't be 'you'.


That is exactly what I'm suggesting though, it's impermanent death and rebirth.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Mir@k » Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:00 pm

Exactly Veg, it's closing the mind. Only way from preventing people from bringing down the only thing that allows some humans to cling to life, while at the same time barring the pursuit of truth or knowledge. Personal choice.

So, if we die, does that mean we go to a deep sleep? Would we dream for an undetermined amount of time? If so, won't that create a whole universe within our dreams?
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby EagleMan » Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:58 pm

Sentios wrote:The problem with this argument is humans lose their higher level consciousness every time they go to sleep, effectively this means what you are saying could be taken to mean 'everyday you are a different person'. I don't have any real qualms with that statement but then changing to a new brain like I've described loses all of it's philosophical cons.

It's not the same, though I could see why you'd bring that up. My brain is a vessel for me. Wherever that vessel goes, "I" go. If that vessel is taken out of my head, then I go with it. If an exact copy, Vessel and Brain B, is placed where I used to be, I am still in Vessel A. There has been no transference of me from A to B. Just because Vessel B on the outside appears to be the same "me", does not actually make it me - at least from my perspective. To an outside perspective it doesn't really matter, but it does to me, because I'm no longer in my body.

To put it a different way, let's use a car as an example. I have a car in my driveway. I go to sleep at night, and God decides to troll me by rolling that car away to a garbage lot, and rolling up another car that is exactly the same in every way into the exact same position my car used to be. License plate, paint, it's all the same and my keys still work. To me, from an outside perspective, I can't even tell so it doesn't matter. But let's say this supernatural force did this while I was inside the original car. I can very clearly see myself being pulled away and an exact replacement put in. I am no longer in my driveway. I am now in a dump, even though the exact same car is now in my driveway, it is quite clear to me now that they are not the same cars. This is the same for if my brain was replaced by an identical copy. My consciousness goes with my brain. That's what I meant by the chain of consciousness.

It is theoretically possible that I am a new me every night. Say some crazy scientist has a method of kidnapping me silently, making an exact clone, and giving that clone all my memories until I had fallen asleep. From the clone's perspective, he wouldn't even know. But let's say the kidnapped me is kept alive and put in some cell. It is quite clear to the kidnapped me that that person out there living my life in the exact same way is no longer "me", because I am me. The chain of consciousness was broken, even if the clone and nobody else don't realize it, I do.

(I believe this addresses the concepts we're discussing in other quotes, I don't want to overload the thread on quotes, unless there's something specific you still want me to respond to)
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby noxux » Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:51 pm

I´m surprised that this thread still going.

I mostly think there is life after death, like Randori said, a afterlife. There are some theories that when you sleep and you start seeing people in dreams that you haven´t met is becuase the person you see on the dreams is someone that you met in one past life. Other reasons that people think there is an after life and not a deep sleep or heaven or hell is that every moment someone dies there are like ten that born. (Last sentence is a personal opinion).
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby EagleMan » Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:02 pm

A theory implies evidence.

I don't get what you mean in the last sentence though, what sort of afterlife are you talking about there? There've been times in human history where more people were dying off than being born. Also just for information's sake the current death:birth ratio is about 1:2.4 and that figure will go down in the following decades.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby noxux » Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:21 pm

Well that is true but is there evidence of what happens after death? Someone told me to separate the words in way of how people describe them, in this case: Is there life after death or Is there life at the end of life?
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Blood Lord » Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:41 pm

I'm trying to figure out if you are going after the same thing in both of those possibilities (because that's how it is registering for me), or if you are dipping into the reincarnation or resurrection thing.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby EagleMan » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:17 am

noxux wrote:Well that is true but is there evidence of what happens after death? Someone told me to separate the words in way of how people describe them, in this case: Is there life after death or Is there life at the end of life?

Is there currently evidence that our consciousnesses continue to exist in some form? No. Do we biologically know what happens after death? Yes. You decay and most people either end up burnt or buried.

Given that we do not see the consciousnesses of past dead people reappearing in some shape or form on Earth itself, we can at least rule out that sort of afterlife (e.g. ghosts) rather conclusively.

And Noxux I still don't know what you meant by that previous post. I believe you may just be tripping yourself over semantics. Obviously if something like an afterlife exists, death is not "death" but merely a transitional stage towards something else. Death would then refer to the biological cessation of the body we reside in and the departure of our consciousness from this world if an afterlife is real.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby noxux » Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:35 am

@EM yes I mean exactly what your just said I believe in a transitional stage towards something else.
@BloodLord I believe in reincarnation but if they prove me wrong I'm open for new "beliefs".
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby EagleMan » Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:53 am

It is not possible to prove reincarnation wrong though.

However, what type of reincarnation do you believe in?

This is actually more testable than something like a person going to Heaven. If in reincarnation you are born as another human, and your consciousness continues, then there should be some percentage of people able to recall past lives (assuming new "souls" are made regularly). But no one has been able to come forward and scientifically prove knowledge of a past life - e.g., if George Washington was reincarnated, then presumably his reincarnation should be able to provide previously unknown details about George Washington's life that also fit snugly and consistently with what we already know about him.

So analyzing it scientifically, reincarnation makes specific claims that are also testable on Earth. If reincarnation were true, we would see evidence of this, as people would be able to accurately recall past lives, and be able to both add and prove new details about past people's lives.

Beliefs that say that consciousness after death transcends and moves beyond Earth (e.g. Heaven) are not testable, but beliefs that say our consciousness stays on Earth (reincarnation, ghosts, spirits, etc.) are, and we can quite clearly see that these claims are false because they have not happened.

Therefore as an agnostic I can quite easily rule out the existence of ghosts or the possibility of reincarnation on Earth based on the lack of evidence, since if their claims were true, it would be quite easy to see the evidence on Earth, but I cannot 100% rule out the possibility of my consciousness leaving Earth upon my death, since something like Heaven existing would not necessarily mean we would be able to see any evidence of it on Earth.
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby Tuor » Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:56 am

Skepticism 4 lyfe
"Suddenly Frodo noticed that a strange-looking weather-beaten man, sitting in the shadows near the wall, was also listening intently to the hobbit-talk. He had a tall tankard in front of him, and was smoking a long-stemmed pipe curiously carved. His legs were stretched out before him, showing high boots of supple leather that fitted him well, but had seen much wear and were now caked with mud. A travel-stained cloak of heavy dark-green cloth was drawn close about him, and in spite of the heat of the room he wore a hood that overshadowed his face; but the gleam of his eyes could be seen as he watched the hobbits."
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Re: Philosophy Thread

Postby noxux » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:58 pm

Well Eagleman I don't fully believe in rencarnation but in the type of rencarnation I believe is the one when after someone dies it goes instantly into a new born.

By the way for the people who wants to change subjects tell me and I will change it.
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