Hated Cartoons

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Re: Hated Cartoons

Postby Brax4 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:28 pm

That's the one...
But we digress.
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Re: Hated Cartoons

Postby Rival » Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:52 pm

Exodis wrote:I liked the 1st Ben 10 series. After Ben 10: Alien Force, it just went downhill.

>DAT akward feel, when I entirely agree with Exodis on something. I may need a shower.

I think a large part of whether one likes the original Ben 10 or not, depends on whether one considers it important for the protagonist of a light-hearted show to be sympathetic and for a cartoon to teach morals. In both cases, I don't. So for me Ben 10 was enjoyable because it was in essence like a modern Silver Age comic, Man of Action(the moniker of the writing team) just had a ton of fun with the premise, ridiculous plots, cool designs, tons of action, outlandish villains, badass grandpas and female cousins and lots of super-dickery from the "hero", just pure crystalized childish escapism.

Then Dwayne McDuffie came along, may he rest in peace, and as much as I love his work on JL/JLU he totally didn't get the appeal of Ben 10 and made Alien Force a boring, preachy show. The entire 1st season of AF was about how racism is wrong, with the villains being basically space-nazis, all the stupidity of the nazi racial ideology without the cool uniforms, yay. But it had tons of morals, boy did it ever, so ThatGirlWithGlasses might enjoy it.
ThatGirlWithGlasses wrote:Ben 10 (seriously how many shows can they make out of this premise).

Ben 10 merchandise sells very well and almost all 9-12 demographic cartoons are merchandise vehicles. So they'll keep making them until it stops being easy profit.

That's also why Young Justice got cancelled, I really liked the show, but it was expensive to make and had horrid merchandise sales. The often cited "it got cancelled to make room for Teen Titans and Batman" is nonsense had it been profitable the 2 shows would've simply expanded the block.
Whatis6times9 wrote:Not really, cartoon producers have realized that their biggest audience is 16-25 year olds. The jokes that fly under the radar and the amount in Regular Show, Adventure Time, Gravity Falls are a testament to that. If you want to talk about a bad era the late 90s were definitely more bombastic and targeted towards kids, but maybe that's because I don't have nostalgia goggles over things like Dexter's Laboratory.

I don't think the accusation with the nostalgia goggles is entirely fair. Dexter's Laboratory had episodes that were complete meta jokes where no kid would get the "real" joke of the episode, like "Dee Dee and the Man" or "The Continuum of Cartoon Fools" at the top of my head.

Speaking of which, the 90s cartoon adult jokes were more geared towards meta-humour, stuff like "Homer's Enemy" or "The Itchy & Scratchy & Poochie Show" or "Pinky and the Brain... and Larry", or "Gimme the Works", or "The Sound of Warners" or the two aforementioned Dexter's Lab episodes had entire premises poking fun at the nature of cartoons, the nature of the characters, or executive meddling. That's also adult jokes, as when I watched that stuff as a 13 year old I got none of it.

In fact, I'd argue they're more adult then "Mabel is high on smile dip and is tripping" or "Dipper joining the manotaurs is a metaphore of penis size angst", I think I'd get both as a 13 year old. As you said yourself, cartoon comedy nowadays is about getting jokes "under the radar", so the achievement is more in getting it unedited on air, not in the jokes themselves requiring maturity in order to "get them". And just to make it clear I love Gravity Falls, and yes it has more adult geared jokes in its 1st season than Dexter's Lab had. I just thought the nostalgia goggle thing was too judgemental.
Last edited by Rival on Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Hated Cartoons

Postby Whatis6times9 » Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:31 pm

The nostalgia goggles was more aimed at people who criticize modern cartoons for much of the same issues that were pervasive in cartoons over the past 30 years. Whether it be that cartoons are now half hour marketing tools, the decline in writing, purely being loud ADHD fest cartoons and Dexter's Lab would fall under some of those complaints. I'd say the only genre of cartoon that's been hit hard over the past 30 years is action cartoons because kids don't play with toys the way they did 15 years ago let alone 30. Though they will probably be on a rebound with the much higher dollar collector market.
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Re: Hated Cartoons

Postby ThatGirlWithGlasses » Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:51 am

Adventure Time and Regular Show kind of are ADHD fests, I think a lot of the writers or whoever has that power think all kids want is loud, random, weirdness. While that kind of is true they also like stories, Powerpuff Girls, Dexter's Lab, etc. they told great stories and stayed true to central plot (sort of). While I'll admit Adventure Time does have its good moments at times it doesn't give us "mature" jokes, not adult jokes, mature jokes. As in it doesn't handle anything with maturity, Dexter's Lab did that and even Animaniacs was really clever at how they spun out their jokes.
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Re: Hated Cartoons

Postby Rival » Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:08 am

Whatis6times9 wrote:The nostalgia goggles was more aimed at people who criticize modern cartoons for much of the same issues that were pervasive in cartoons over the past 30 years.

Ah in that case, fair enough.
ThatGirlWithGlasses wrote:Adventure Time and Regular Show kind of are ADHD fests, I think a lot of the writers or whoever has that power think all kids want is loud, random, weirdness. While that kind of is true they also like stories, Powerpuff Girls, Dexter's Lab, etc. they told great stories and stayed true to central plot (sort of). While I'll admit Adventure Time does have its good moments at times it doesn't give us "mature" jokes, not adult jokes, mature jokes. As in it doesn't handle anything with maturity, Dexter's Lab did that and even Animaniacs was really clever at how they spun out their jokes.

Even Animaniacs? Animaniacs had a ton of subversive humour and cleverly hidden jokes. Definitely more so than say PPG.

I don't think you can say PPG and Dexter's Lab had a "central plot", premise yes, but the show's episodes were entirely self-contained safe for 4-5 exceptions.

On an semi-related note, since you hold Dexter's Lab in such high esteem while also saying that you dislike Ren & Stimpy, you might find it interesting to know that at least according to Jon McClenahan, Dexter's Lab was Genndy's homage to Kricfalusi. I don't mean that in a mean-spirited way btw. I just think it's interesting trivia.
We threw out a wide net and hired all kinds of new people - some good, some not so good. These included animator Chris Brandt (to avoid confusion with my wife, also named Chris, he adopted the nickname 'Spike' and he is now still known as Spike Brandt in Hollywood, currently one of the exec producers for the 'Duck Dodgers' series), animator Kirk Tingblad (who moved to Homewood from Minneapolis), animator David March (who had been a teacher in Cincinnatti), animator Jeff Siergey (who had worked at Calabash), BG painter Uttam Kumar (implant from India, great artist who would figure prominently in StarToons' future), BG artist Kurt Mitchell (who had been a popular illustrator in Chicago before coming to StarToons), assistant Tony Cervone (then a young shoe salesman, now co-producing 'Duck Dodgers' with Spike Brandt, and author of the Walter Foster 'How to Draw Looney Toons' book), assistant Mary Hanley (former Columbia College student of mine), and assistant Genndy Tartakovsky (now famous as being the creator of 'Dexter's Lab', 'Samurai Jack', and those recent Star Wars things).

I'm sorry to say there were others whose faces I remember but not their names.

All of these guys were talented in their own way, but none of them had ever worked on a TV series before, so I had to show them the ropes, teach them the rules, the processes. Animation is a lot of work, but it also requires a ton of organization and management.

Genndy had been my teacher's assistant when I taught at Columbia. He was enthusiastic although I thought his student film was horrible - some terribly drawn, unfunny film about a King Kong-type character. The one thing he had going for him was his enthusiasm and his hard work. Unfortunately all that changed when he came to StarToons. I could see he had the brains and the desire to become a good animator, but I needed him to learn how to draw and time motion. The best way to learn that is to clean up and assist for animators who know what they're doing. But he had become completely infatuated with John Kricsfalusi's 'Ren & Stimpy', and when he saw that we weren't trying to emulate John K's style, he left StarToons after about a month. He got very little done for us - he had no interest. He moved to LA and worked on 'The Critic'.....not sure what he did for them, but the drawing requirements were a lot lower so it probably gave him a chance to cut his teeth on some real production work ... not sure how 'The Critic' was preferable to 'Tiny Toons' but I guess as long as it was West Coast, it made Genndy happy. Later he landed a chance to work in-house at Hanna-Barbera and created 'Dexter's Lab', which was really his homage to Kricsfalusi (even Dexter's voice was modeled after Ren's). 'What a Cartoon' loved him, and the rest is history.

You knew Tartakovsky? Wow....I find his being "amateur" at the time hard to believe. This IS the Dexter's Lab guy...

I think when Genndy talks about his career, he starts with "Dexter's Lab" and pretends the years he spent in Chicago never happened. It's probably just as well. His enthusiasm took his career to new heights, and he never looked back.

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Re: Hated Cartoons

Postby Whatis6times9 » Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:59 pm

ThatGirlWithGlasses wrote:Adventure Time and Regular Show kind of are ADHD fests, I think a lot of the writers or whoever has that power think all kids want is loud, random, weirdness. While that kind of is true they also like stories, Powerpuff Girls, Dexter's Lab, etc. they told great stories and stayed true to central plot (sort of). While I'll admit Adventure Time does have its good moments at times it doesn't give us "mature" jokes, not adult jokes, mature jokes. As in it doesn't handle anything with maturity, Dexter's Lab did that and even Animaniacs was really clever at how they spun out their jokes.

But Adventure Time and Regular Show's main audience isn't even screaming 6 year olds. And not even as a big fan of Adventure Time, I've seen more maturity in how they handle relationships between characters and character development than I ever did on the old Cartoon Cartoon shows. Honestly at this point the only channel that still really aims cartoons at kids is Nickelodeon.
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