Jay wrote:It's totally irrelevant that the modern "Palestine" did not exist under the Ottoman Empire,
It is absolutely relevant. The land was owned by the Ottomans, and when they fell the land was basically up for grabs. Everyone there was an Arabian immigrant who all came from different countries; Palestine was the region, not the country, and no one at that time really considered themselves "Palestinian."
This is a map of the United Kingdom of Israel circa 1020 BCE:
Consider that this was over 3000 years ago. Since then the land has changed hands many times, and has been controlled by Ancient Egyptians, Canaanites, Ancient Israelites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Ancient Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, the Sunni Arab Caliphate, the Shia Fatimid Caliphate, Crusaders, Ayyubids, Mameluks, Ottomans, the British and modern Israelis and Palestinians (Wikipedia).
Jay wrote:I don't see what the area having been a part of the Ottoman Empire gives ANY power, especially ones not even in the region!
The British took control of the land after promising a large part of the land to the Arabs in exchange for their support against the Ottomans, and also to the Jewish for their support. Of course, these were conflicting promises as I'm sure the Arab leaders and the Jewish people probably expected to rule almost exclusively over the land.
It wasn't so much that the Ottoman Empire itself had any sway in how the land was divided, nor is that what the above article is trying to say.
Jay wrote:any rights to determine whether they can parachute a chunk of Israelites into the region because their populations are anti-Semites and it's better to just shove them off somewhere else (to the point that the Jews were so incensed by European and Anglo-Saxon bigotry that they themselves pleaded to be parachuted somewhere!)
I believe it was more of an arbitrary decision (as a peacekeeping effort), though both parties may have been promised to the same land. It seems as though the decision to give Israel the capitol of Jerusalem, the Holy City, was met with anger for entirely religious reasons, which would make sense, considering the resulting wars against Israel.
Jay wrote:The creation of Israel didn't even start with the UN anyways. It began after WWI as a British effort. The UN didn't even exist yet!
With all due respect, you're wrong. The League of Nations was replaced by the United Nations in 1945. The League of Nations failed in the purpose of their organization--which was to prevent wars between nations--and so the UN basically took over.
Unfortunately, like most things that involve a lot of people with conflicting self-interests, it really didn't work too well, as we know now.
Jay wrote:The local inhabitants had no real choice in the matter considering the British would've just blown them up if they resisted.
True, the British could have done that, but they ended up not doing that, even after the eight Arab states tried to destroy Israel. No one really tried to help Israel when attacked by eight countries almost simultaneously. Israel had no choice but to defend itself or risk annihilation.
Remind me why we have a disagreement about this? I really have no clue.
Jay wrote:Of course, by the end of WWII, Britain was a spent power. They had no patience for Imperialism, there was too much to fix back home that this random pet project was too much trouble. So they threw the problem at the UN and ran laughing into the night.
I love the image that brings to mind, by the way.
Jay wrote:Then at that time, all things considered, the UN decided, "Well, okay. Everyone in the what used to be the Ottoman Empire and then were British protectorates can have the right of self determination, as outlined in the UN principles, and we'll carve out nations like that accordingly.
Except you guys over here. Cause that's where a bunch of Jews are... and, uh, we were all dicks to them and they had a pretty rough time, you know? So, you guys can make it up to them for us. Deal? Oh, haha, I forget, you don't need to agree. Here's your receipt, you don't need to sign."
A bit revisionist... but that's essentially how it happened, I suppose.
Jay wrote:My favorite part about that link you gave is how it's specifically edited to use words that throws animosity and savagery as qualities of the Arab alliance and tries to white wash as much Israel responsibility of the whole matter. It's really funny.
I don't see the humor. Especially when even a quick search through Wikipedia
seems to verify all the article's claims.
Jay wrote:Not saying Israel shouldn't exist. The problem has gone way beyond any clear cut solution or obvious moral answer. It's just a fucking retard party now.
It may very well be. However, my solution would be for the United States to publicly announce its support of Israel. If anything, Israel deserves more support than we give all their enemies combined. In my opinion, we should let Israel carry out whatever pre-emptive strikes it believes are necessary against its aggressors, with full support from the United States.
Jay wrote:Also, you might not know, but the beloved "state of Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza" that the article says they would've had IF ONLY the mean Arab dictators didn't attack a POOR Israel BEGGING for peace!
If peace had resulted from Israel's attempts at peace with the surrounding (violent) Arab nations who soon swore to redeem Palestine "in fire and blood" (and no, the author of that article didn't make that up), then yes they would have a very peaceful state, with prosperous people who enjoy more freedoms and a better way of life as a result. But that's not what happened, obviously, and as recently as last year, Israel has still been trying to make peace with its neighbors, but can't because the surrounding nations refuse to recognize it. PA Chairman Abbas even presented a map where all of Israel is erased
, and had it publicly displayed.
And the author of that article didn't make up how the Islamists call the failure to destroy Israel upon its founding "The Catastrophe" either. Even if that wasn't what they called it then, it's what they call it now.