Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby NeoWarrior7 » Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:23 pm

Last I heard, the recession is because of the economic importance of Seoul.

Aka the capital of S. Korea.

Aka the city that's straight blown to shreds by the very close by N. Korea artillery.
Something something DMZ has a lot of guns something something.

It could be something else of course, but I think that's more what people mean compared to the cost of invasion.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby EagleMan » Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:50 pm

The reason their country sucks so much besides the dictator bit is because they funnel all the money into the military. South Korea is dense. Massive damage would be inflicted. It's not like America where if you throw a dart at a map you'd probably hit somewhere unpopulated - their land is small, and heavily developed, and having a country decimated like that would surely affect the global economy, especially due to its relations to the U.S., who if affected would then affect everyone else.

I still find it odd how you underestimate and brush aside the real cost of death and destruction. Some old families being reunited is okay if dozens of more families on both sides are destroyed in the process? What says the North Korean army wouldn't fight to the death, even if they were being massacred? You're taking an incredibly big gamble here with people's lives based on information you even admit we really don't have.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby BobSagat » Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:47 pm

Let me explain for DaCrum.

He's seen enough Hollywood movies and Colbert Report to know that intricate political situations can be resolved if you just war it up a bit. Every one just needs a good killing to get rid of all the bad feelings and then we can all get hunky-dory and make peace and stuff. Things always turn out alright in that Transformers movie no matter how much shit gets blown up, I'm sure the Korea situation will handle the same way. See DaCrum knows this. It doesn't matter that there are issues and grudges running far deeper than he could possibly hope to understand. DaCrum knows whats what, he should be the one in charge of shit because he knows we should just kill a bunch of fucking people for the slim chance of everything turning out a-okay. Anything else is just stupid political bullshit obviously.

If the solution to all the world's problems can't be condensed into a single sentence then DaCrum ain't interested.

Why doesn't Obama just nuke N. Korea off the face of the earth? It's so obvious, what an idiot.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby Jay » Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:57 pm

lol kids in serious discussions

Jong Il was a good guy, he always checked up on my factory and appreciated the cooking oil I helped manufacture!
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby EagleMan » Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:07 pm

lol demeaning the only conversation this forum is having

Anyways the lack of knowledge we have is exactly why we should wait and see. I think it's generally accepted to be bad military strategy to send your soldiers into an unknown situation, and that saving one life on your side is preferable to killing a few on the other (at least in this day and age for modern countries).
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby Jay » Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:11 pm

It's just DaCrum who's overly juvenile at the moment, don't sweat it.

As long as China considers North Korea an important strategic asset and it doesn't become a loose cannon, it's not going away. This isn't going to change no matter how well the US and China get along economically.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby Sentios » Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:20 pm

DaCrum wrote:Seeing as China is likely to have an economic crash when their current workforce gets old(common indicator of economic strength is the ratio of workforce to dependents[children, the old, the sick, etc.]),

Because Africa is doing so well economically am I right?

A far more accurate projection of a healthy nation (ignoring for a second the value distortions caused by economists and profiteers) is technological progress, which China is not lacking in right now.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby DaCrum » Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:49 am

Africa is just a huge destabilized mess though, that's why that ratio doesn't apply. China not only has technological marvels, they also have a government that'll exist in 20 years time.

As for the war with North Korea, the reason I'm blowing off the death and destruction isn't because I'm underestimating it. It just won't matter in the long run. We take them out before they get nuclear weapons, at most we have a bombing campaign in Seoul, and then a repeat of the initial push into the South like in the original Korean War, followed by a HUGE push by a now very angry US and very angry South Korea all the way to the Chinese border. At some point, especially now, China will go "You're not getting help from us because our good trades with the US are much more important to us than any buffer zone you created back when the US was actually a threat to us."

The idea I'm seeing is the amount of human suffering in the long run in North Korea is worth the quick war that would be the second Korean War. I'm sure both the US and Seoul have pre-existing plans for all of this(war, reunification, etc.). Indeed you're right about the lack of information, it would definitely take a bit more investigation before a true war with North Korea would be soluble. I think either way, the animal instinct of survival will kick in for soldiers. If anything, not all of them would fight to the death. The other thing to consider is Seoul(and I too) has thought about what if North Korea attacked. They never ended the war. There was never any peace treaty, or peace talks. Just a sort of end of fighting. It's been a cold war since the end of the hot war in the 50s. And the North Koreans like to throw their weight around to encourage other nations to give them food. We see whenever we cut their food, they'll bomb a battleship, or artillery strike an island. I really hate this.

And please, if you have a better idea to solving this situation, I'd be more than willing to accept it, provided it made an ounce of sense. But just standing by when we have an overtly aggressive, cult-state whose right next to a huge economic factor isn't acceptable.


Neo: At least in the US, the biggest contributor to the economic downfall was the housing market bubble and credit issues.



And seriously, Bob, you're fucking retarded and you can't look past your own goddamned overinflated ego to even BEGIN to debate. You have brought less argumentation to the argument THAN me. I make a point, I state it, I defend it, I give my reasons for the initial thing. You? The ENTIRE argument with you, and the reason I'm not responding to you is BECAUSE your entire argument has been ad hominem. See how EM is trying to convince me my plan of action isn't the best, by using like... Logic. And counter arguments? Yeah. That's worked a whole of a lot better at convincing me than throwing your ego around like a fucking baseball bat. You can't intimidate me by acting like you're smart with your vocabulary while doing NOTHING INTELLIGENT.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby BobSagat » Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:17 am

It's because I don't like you.

You and all your smartass folk. You vermin who populate the internet like the fucking plague.

It's understandable, you're a privileged nerdy white kid still just getting out of puberty. You're liable to thinking you actually know what the fuck you're talking about just because your test scores are little good. You pollute the internet. You and all your wannabe kind.

Do you see how fucking far your "debate" has gotten. How fucking derailed it has become in your desperate bid to defend yourself as you grasp at whatever fucking factoid shit you can google? I no longer care about participating in this pissing contest of words because there's simply no point. You arguments and counterarguments or whatever the fuck you want to call them are so fundamentally lacking in any sort of world experience or actual fucking knowledge that it would be like trying to explain to a three year old where babies come from.

You are too fucking stupid to have a real discussion.

One clarification: It's not my mission for you to actually understand this mind-blowing concept that you're nothing but a conceited stupid shit. My only reason for posting this is that I just don't like you and I won't pass up this chance to insult you.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby EagleMan » Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:22 am

I still think it's a gamble, and if it's with peoples lives, that seems unacceptable to me.

A future devastating war is possible, while the death and destruction of initiating the war is guaranteed.

I guess it might depend on how you view the North Korean leadership. I view them as a people who use craziness as a tool to get what they want, and not as being inherently crazy themselves. Admittedly, if a person is genuinely deluded ideologically, as are some terrorist organizations, the only way to respond is with war against them since there can truly never be any concessions. But I'm not convinced that's the case with North Korea. I think they use the ideology and cult of personality as a means to their own greed, instead of the ideology being its own end.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby DaCrum » Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:32 am

EM: Yeah, that makes sense. I'm more worried as we go farther and farther down the generations, we begin to delude the original intent of the crazy. It seems like Il-sung was less crazy than Jong-il is less crazy than Jong-un.

Except Bob you haven't demonstrated intelligence at all. Ever. Every single debate I've ever seen you in you immediately go to this stupid condescending "Everyone is naive people while I, the 20 something year old I am surely can't be that naive fellow who I keep describing". You think you know shit? Laughable. You're not even willing to listen to a viewpoint opposing yours. You're fucking pathetic. And I'm done stooping to your level. Fucking deal with it.

Also, thank you for confessing to being about as bloody useless as an asshole on an eyebrow. Conceited, privileged kid that you are, you're more bloody useless than me as far as I'm concerned. For all I know I may very well be in the wrong. And EM is helping to correct that and doing a damn fine job of it. You have done nothing, and very well confessed to flaming. So I'm gonna go on the passive aggressive high road and say continue it, and I will report you. You're breaking the rules kid.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby BobSagat » Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:15 am

LOLOLOLOLOL.

Do you see how you've just taken what I said and gone "NO U!"

All of the insults and name-calling, just up and plagiarized. Well, I'm glad to have influenced you such. And I'm even gladder if you're happy to concede to Eagle if only to spite me.

Really, I am.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby BeeAre » Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:44 am

BobSagat wrote:LOLOLOLOLOL.

Do you see how you've just taken what I said and gone "NO U!"

All of the insults and name-calling, just up and plagiarized. Well, I'm glad to have influenced you such. And I'm even gladder if you're happy to concede to Eagle if only to spite me.

Really, I am.


Bob. Maybe you can explain to me where your knowledge comes from in a PM that you would so immediately discount DaCrum's statements as uninformed without some sort of proof to substantiate your claims that he is in fact uninformed.

You both have dipped down and been assholes, but this post right here? This is a decision you have made that stops even the pretense of argument.

If you want to discuss this in private with me, so I can understand your justifications, you can.

But you're not posting another fucking thing in this thread that can even be construed as an insult. You're getting abusive, and I really don't want you to start setting a trend.

You stop right now. Don't respond to this post in this thread, btw. I will suspend you for a few days so you can calm down if you post a single word that i can see as you attempting to insult or flame. Not once has the person you are disparaging spewed full sentence all-caps nonsense. Do you want me to count how many times YOU did it?

No, no. An entire post was in all-caps. That is forums putrescence of the worst kind. You're done posting like that, friend.

Personally, I can't even fathom why either of you is so vehemently opposed to conceding that even parts of the others' theories are correct--except that DaCrum basically has done this with other more polite people. Not that he hasn't just yelled "shithead" a few times metaphorically.

If this discussion is going to remain this heated, you guys better start backing up your posts with claims and sources--except that there will be none that i accept when your argument is "this guy is a douchebag". so let's relax.

relax, go to spam and yell "faggot" for six hours, or i remove your ability to post for a few days so you get some distance between yourself and the emotions making you this angry. i say you in a very broad sense.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby Grey » Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:09 am

DC and BS just got DP'd by BR, OK?
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby Jay » Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:06 pm

Bob's tactless but honestly he's basically right. Just tactless, and loud, and all that jazz. So, you know, he should stop posting, cause it's his initiative to stop while he had the higher ground. *shrug*

I can't blame him though. DaCrum's posts are full of high minded idealistic abstracts to have any place in any sort of place in real foreign policy. Starting a war with some two bit nation that'll never be a real threat cause democracy and liberating whatever people and freedom or whatever?

Nice to put on posters but wow I hope you're never in a position to make real decisions. You're delusional and dangerous. It's pretty apt you got the LA Noire protagonist as an avatar.

I'd be more forgiving if North Korea played any sort of larger strategic role, but it doesn't in the least. Not for resources, not for bargaining, and is GUARANTEED to make an important economic ally squeamish. You're playing chicken with populations of billions. For no material gain. It's insane.

Lucrative Capitalist trade or not, PRC leadership is never going to accept an American occupation of North Korea. It's not happening. That same PRC is the one that vetoes intervention in Middle Eastern dictatorships because those falling make them uncomfortable. North Korea is the same thing, except what you suggest is direct US initiation--not allowing a grassroots rebellion to form first!--and on a nation that is an ESSENTIAL security asset to the nation, rather than some far away middle eastern desert they honestly couldn't care less about!

That you even entertain these ideas is lunacy, DaCrum. It's pretty simple. Take it from a guy who spends more time than healthy reading about Asian international relations and talking about it over coffee with academics, there's no way in hell this could be worth it anymore.

The only time North Korea was ever worth it was as a stepping stone against the PRC itself, as a threat to democracy and more importantly, as a neccessary step to containment, which they still believed in. Now that China is basically reconciled with the US, a trade partner, containment is shown bunk, AND the USSR is gone, there's literally ZERO reason to bother with NK, except for leftover propaganda fabricated sentiment about ideals or whatever, that has to just die out naturally.

Anyone who actually believes the North Koreans will ever be an actual threat have drunk far, far, far too much of the koolaid. It's a cool story, I'm sure it'll make fun video game plots. But real like, hahaha. Hahahaha. The US has made some real retarded foreign policy decisions before. But trust me when I say they always only make it through because there's an important, ulterior objective at stake or mass popular demand for it--usually both. The latter you can manufacture to an extent, but nah man. It's really not worth considering. Not even American stupidity could start a war with North Korea.

btw why North and South Korea have never signed a formal peace treaty?

It's just to save face. Nothing else. If you think that's not why, you don't understand Asia.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby DaCrum » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:54 pm

I deal with more Eurasian/Middle Eastern foreign policies than Asian. Never really interested me. So yeah, I'll concede defeat just because it sounds like Jay has really researched his shit here.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby EagleMan » Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:01 pm

DC, not even specifically in the context of North Korea, would you be okay with this calculated gamble of human life and property if it would affect you, your family and friends? Instead of some faceless Asians or Middle Easterners.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby DaCrum » Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:47 pm

If in the long run, it leads to a better standard of life for a sizable population, yes.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby EagleMan » Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:12 pm

But how could one be sure that would be the end result?

I was also just checking - it's easy to say you will die or some others you don't know for something you believe in, but it's a sign of commitment to say you'd have your friends and family die for it.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby DaCrum » Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:24 pm

I'm a utilitarianist. And nothing in life is guaranteed, I guess the big thing would be the high probability of increased standard of living for a sizable population.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby EagleMan » Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:43 pm

Eh, that's just the problem I see with that philosophy - the dilemma of the railroad track for instance seems unfeasible to me because in a real life situation you would never be able to really know whether you're choosing the best outcome, whether one person dying would really save 5 others, or whether you just killed that man for no good reason at all.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby DaCrum » Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:49 pm

It makes perfect sense. Foreign policy isn't my strong point, and definitely if I were in any position of powers, I would surround myself with advisers and people who know the insides and outs of the situation.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby EagleMan » Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:21 pm

What about the problem of having insiders who can't see anything in the grand scheme? There's always a risk of insularity with that, which is how we got Vietnam, because of listening to the generals on a strategy that was ultimately ill-advised.

Just as well, we avoided a crisis in Cuba due to JFK going against his generals' advice, and if he listened to them war probably would've started that day, and consequently nuclear war. Obama also went against the advice of his military advisers in going after Osama with a ground team instead of a drone strike.

This is also why Herman Cain came to be seen as a joke. He had no real policy. He'd dodge the questions by saying he'd listen to the generals and his advisers.

Of course I by no means advocate just going it on your own in every situation.. but it's a bit of a cop out to answer that way.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby DaCrum » Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:25 pm

Either way, I'd need eyes and ears there. Right now I can't even remotely say what kind of fight a new Korean war would be other than bloody.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby Sentios » Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:08 am

DaCrum wrote:Africa is just a huge destabilized mess though, that's why that ratio doesn't apply. China not only has technological marvels, they also have a government that'll exist in 20 years time.


'The ratio applies so long as it's convenient.'

Is how that reads. Africa in general is not particularly unstable, there are areas where it's highly unstable but that shouldn't effect the entire continent. It is however consistently overpopulated given it's life supporting resources.

EagleMan wrote:Admittedly, if a person is genuinely deluded ideologically, as are some terrorist organizations, the only way to respond is with war against them since there can truly never be any concessions.


Waging war on an abstract concept or behavior has historically ended up wasting time and resources. See: the wars and on terror and drugs.
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