Weekly discussion 24 (1/13/13-1/20/13): $1 trillion coin

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Re: Weekly discussion (1/19-1/26): Those fascist commie traitors

Postby DaCrum » Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:59 pm

Because I'm trying to find out a conspiracy, that, quite frankly, is schizophrenic at worst and humorous at best. Plus, it would interest me how someone profits off of money losing value.
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Re: Weekly discussion (1/19-1/26): Those fascist commie traitors

Postby Rough Giraffe » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:14 am

That's not how you use "schizophrenic."

Also, I mistakenly wrote "Black Friday" when what I meant was "Black Wednesday." Please excuse my Freudian slip. If you'll give me a little time, I'll write up an explanation as to how that works.
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Re: Weekly discussion (1/19-1/26): Those fascist commie traitors

Postby DaCrum » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:33 am

It is how I use schizophrenic. His ideas are schizophrenic. Crazy, insane, not based in reality.
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Re: Weekly discussion (1/19-1/26): Those fascist commie traitors

Postby Rough Giraffe » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:51 am

I'll leave that one alone.

Anyway, basically what Soros did was short-sell Sterling. Short-selling is a kind of reverse trading. When you trade you buy a hard asset, be it a stock, a coin, a baseball card or whatever, and hope the value goes up. In short selling, you are selling borrowed assets with the intention of paying back the lender, the one you borrowed your assets from. In the case of short-selling, you hope that the price goes down so that when you pay back your lender, you make a profit. It's difficult for me to fully explore the details of what and how (I'm not a financial expert), but that's essentially how it works.

But Soros went short, as they say, so heavily that he made approximately $1 billion. The whole thing cost the United Kingdom about £3.3 billion.

I don't have access to YouTube right now so I can't show you Soros talking about it, but I can find a quote in which he says, "The United States must stop resisting the orderly decline of the Dollar, the coming Global Currency and the New World Order."

Soros sees America as a threat and wants it and everything it stands for destroyed. This man is not to be trusted. If you knew what this man is, and what he stands for, you wouldn't be calling it a conspiracy theory.
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Re: Weekly discussion (1/19-1/26): Those fascist commie traitors

Postby DaCrum » Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:21 am

I'm thinking you're right. Halfway. Then you get into NWO bullshit and frankly I'm not a fan of wrestling.
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Re: Weekly discussion (1/19-1/26): Those fascist commie traitors

Postby DaCrum » Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:12 am

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Re: Weekly discussion (1/19-1/26): Those fascist commie traitors

Postby Rough Giraffe » Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:47 am

Uh... I'm not trying to sound rude or crass here, but are you agreeing with me, or just being snide? This is the internet; sarcasm isn't interpreted very well.

Soros is not talking about wrestling. He's talking about an extreme Socialist "World Government" with a global currency that everyone in the world is governed and controlled by. You know all those examples I present that you say are unfair and don't represent "real" Socialism (etc.)? That's what he wants, but worldwide.

You probably don't know much about his background. Originally a Hungarian Jew (George Schwartz), he grew up during Nazi Germany. His family pretended to be Christian in order to escape death, and the Nazis made young Soros go to his Jewish neighbors as a courier, and evict them from their homes. So he grew up in very unfavorable conditions.

But he doesn't feel bad about this. In at least two television appearances (1994 and 1998), he has said that he feels no guilt over having evicted his Jewish neighbors, or over the extermination of nearly a half million of his fellow Hungarian Jews. In the introduction of one of his books, he wrote: "It is a sacreligious thing to say, but these ten months [of the Nazi occupation] were the happiest times of my life… We led an adventurous life and we had fun together." He's also said, "I don't deny the Jews right to a national existence--but I don't want to be a part of it."

This man is the 28th richest person in America. He is dangerous, and an anti-semite... And yet no one I talk to knows anything about him.
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Re: Weekly discussion (1/19-1/26): Those fascist commie traitors

Postby BeeAre » Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:36 am

i waile upon a mightye axe withe a tyune that doth seek the favour of the Viking God of Rock to cometh forth and with difyne accuracy lay ye waste o'er the lande as ye will

Fromme the cusp of mine lips i doth impart a decree told unto this thread:

None may post sayve for the Viking God of Rock and hitherto the knave RuffDraft.

Thus spaik ye herald of the Gods, and moderatorre of thy threyds.

No seriously, and I mean it, no one interfere. A real debate.
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Re: Weekly discussion (1/19-1/26): Those fascist commie traitors

Postby Rough Giraffe » Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:15 am

BR, I know you don't agree with half of what I say, yet you continue to demand that I debate with Valhallen. I really think you just want to see Valhallen dominate me.

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Re: Weekly discussion (1/19-1/26): Those fascist commie traitors

Postby Mathias » Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:27 am

Yes.
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Re: Weekly discussion (1/19-1/26): Those fascist commie traitors

Postby DaCrum » Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:23 pm

What I'm saying is I can see Soros as being a bad man, and being a person who profited on the aforementioned short-selling, but hardly one who wants NWO. No one profits in Neo-socialist new world orders.

A global currency sounds nice though. Wouldn't have to get it changed whenever you leave the country. I think the Euro is a good candidate to show the benefits of it.
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Re: Weekly discussion (1/19-1/26): Those fascist commie traitors

Postby Rough Giraffe » Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:53 pm

Soros has even said, in his own words, that he wishes for a new world order. It's not just a passing idea, it's his whole scheme. He's said so many, many times. (Please be advised that this is all from a simple google search of "Soros new world order," and though I tried to check every link, some of those pages wouldn't load for me) He's not joking, he's not philosophising, this is what he wants. Listen to him speak, read his books, research as you will.

As for a global economy, here's some good reading material. I have to get back to work soon, so I don't have time to put it in my own words, sorry.
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Re: Weekly discussion (1/19-1/26): Those fascist commie traitors

Postby DaCrum » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:16 am

That's attacking one global currency with less than savory methods, not the idea of global currency though. In fact, it was even flouting the benefits of the dollar as a global currency.

Soros doesn't seem powerful enough to actually achieve any goal of New World Order, but nonetheless, it's a conspiracy at best. You take random occurrences, a face for it, and try to combine it into some sort of theory for global dominance. I guarantee you it won't happen. No one man has enough power to do that.
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Re: Weekly discussion (1/19-1/26): Those fascist commie traitors

Postby BeeAre » Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:49 am

more realistically no one man will have his own personal power available to himself all the time but i digress shut up dacrum.
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Re: Weekly discussion (1/19-1/26): Those fascist commie traitors

Postby Valhallen » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:34 am

BeeAre wrote:there are what? like less than 1000 TRULY rich people in the world, and most of them yeah consistently engage in a lot of terrible things, but it is hard to pin down a lot of them as evil, you know i also believe that too. :)
Like RuffDraft said, the top 1000 would about correspond to billionaires. They're certainly rich, but consider it in a historical context. The modern era is enormously wealthier than any other time in history, both overall and for individuals. A median person in the US has in may ways a higher standard of living than kings, emperors, and pharaohs of the past (indoor plumbing, medical care, life expectancy, information/entertainment available, etc.) and controls personal wealth at least comparable to the aristocracy of most past civilizations. A modern billionaire controls resources comparable to small modern nations and past empires. In relative terms, there will always be rich and poor, but that doesn't necessarily say a lot about how they function in society.

RuffDraft wrote:Now consider the sheer number of corporations-...
And now consider how many executives make up the whole of each of those companies.
Apparently as of a few years ago, there were about 7 million corporations, 1 million nonprofits, and several tens of millions of other businesses. At any rate, most corporations employ people other than executives. CEOs, say, average several hundred times the pay of their workers. The context of that graph has more to say about wealth concentration and power.

BeeAre wrote:satirists do a better job these days because it seems, to be funny, they HAVE to attack logical consistency in policy moves in order to retain their audience.
To some extent, yes, but they and normal news may have "clappy humor" too.

BeeAre wrote:but let me be specific about my definition as a concession for you: I consider one hundred million to a billion a year in either personal income or total assets in control of moving if not able to be personally indulged in... to be RICH.
RuffDraft wrote:Wait. No. Hell no. So everything below $100 million is a small business? Everyone between $1,000,000 and $99,999,999 is poor? Where do you draw the line?
I think BeeAre may be be defining "truly rich" as those who individually wield significant economic and political power because of their wealth, and in economy of tens of trillions, I suppose this may be a reasonable line, though it would include rather more than a thousand people. Also, "not truly rich" is not synonymous with "small" or "poor". Those are usually defined in relation to the rest of the economic environment, and BeeAre wasn't talking about where he'd draw THAT line, unless he was being uncharacteristically dichotomous.

RuffDraft wrote:Good lord, man! Who's attacking you? I don't go out of my way to insult you in these discussions, and it boggles me as to how you can even think that. If I call you out on what I think is a misinformed idea, why does that automatically make it an insult?
See, I'm not attacking you, I'm attacking the absurdity of your statement. Do you see the difference?
RuffDraft wrote:This coming from a guy who thinks that most Conservatives and rich people are evil?
Simplistic misrepresentation of views is a form of rhetorical attack, justified or not.

RuffDraft wrote:It's hard to take that idea seriously. I can villify someone without ever speaking to them because I know them to be sinister or whatever.
Sure, but how do you know that your criticisms are accurate? Also, I think that BeeAre was referring to either of two things: a media organization criticizing a person without doing much investigation, including interviewing the person criticized; or a media organization actually interviewing a person, but focusing the discussion on superficial, loaded, controversial, etc. things rather than meaningfully getting at what the interviewee thinks about the topic.

RuffDraft wrote:Martha Stewart was convicted of insider trading. To use one's knowledge of one's own company to profit off her own stock downfall is nothing short of devious.
Rather, it's eminently rational, and an extremely obvious thing to do... supposing that government regulations weren't in place to prevent that sort of thing from interfering in socially efficient market operation (or not). And she didn't so much profit from the downfall as she got out before the downfall would have cost her.

RuffDraft wrote:George Soros profited about $1 billion (that's $ 1 , 0 0 0 , 0 0 0 , 0 0 0, btw) off the downfall of the British Pound in 1992. And this very same man is now targeting America. Jesus fucking Christ.
And did he do anything illegal? Or anything obviously immoral? Was he convicted of anything? And how is he "targeting" America?

RuffDraft wrote:Mass murderer Jeffery Dhamer. 'Nuff said.
Who was tried and convicted for multiple murders, which is rather different from insider trading. And being convicted makes it fine for impartial journalists to refer to him as "mass murderer Jeffry Dahmer" "convicted felon Jeffry Dahmer" and such.

RuffDraft wrote:
BeeAre wrote:Let me lay your fears to rest:
*Blink* Fears?
I think that BeeAre was referring to concerns that he would rhetorically vilify someone he disagreed with rather than literal fears.

RuffDraft wrote:But didn't you just say that they villify people without talking to them? Are they not talking to them to their faces? (lol)
I think that BeeAre might be making a distinction between "talking to" and "talking at" if that's the sense he meant, as above. Note that "vilify" doesn't mean to make factually correct but unflattering statements, it means "speak or write about in an abusively disparaging manner". It's the difference between "Person A did X, Y, and Z," and "Person A is the worst person in the world." Or "Cut Person A's mic."

RuffDraft wrote:Jokes aside, the fact that one news group (doesn't matter who they are) might villify someone without talking to them doesn't mean they're wrong.
No, but it does mean they're biased.

RuffDraft wrote:Ah, so you were simply referring to journalists, and not people. Got it.
All journalists are people, but not all people are journalists. So he was referring to people, just not all people.

RuffDraft wrote:I don't know, though... I watching FoxNews for a few hours on my boat, and though the time difference did not allow me to see Bill O'Reilly or Sean Hannity, it seemed that those who were on did not simply try to villify the opponent when they had a liberal speaker on... the host gave him more time than the conservative side and stopped one of the others from interrupting him. Are you sure you're watching the right channel?
As of this, FOX News had all ten of the highest rated "cable news" shows. The most popular star O'Reilley, Hannity, and Beck, and drew about as many viewers as the other six combined. Or perhaps you were referring to Fox & Friends? Would you mind giving an example of what you're talking about?

RuffDraft wrote:Anyway, basically what Soros did was short-sell Sterling. ...
But Soros went short, as they say, so heavily that he made approximately $1 billion. The whole thing cost the United Kingdom about £3.3 billion.
The deal with that is that the UK had, a couple years before that, entered the European Exchange Rate Mechanism. As part of that, the UK government was obligated to intervene to prevent the exchange rate of the Pound and Deutsche Mark from varying more than 8%. At the time, the UK had much higher inflation than Germany, so (along with some other factors) the Pound promptly lost value, and the Uk government intervened by buying Pounds and raising interest rates to prevent the exchange rate from falling further. Instead of getting out of the ERM and letting the Pound float, the people in charge of policy tried to sustain the Pound's value past the point where they reasonably should have given up. Soros and other investors saw that the Pound's value was unsustainable and due for a sharp fall when the UK government would soon no longer prop it up, and short sold Pounds, which the UK bought in its attempt to keep the value from falling. The UK then stopped its intervention and withdrew from the ERM, the Pound fell, and Soros and the other speculators made a tidy profit.

So how does this show that Soros was evil rather than just an astute businessman?

RuffDraft wrote:vI don't have access to YouTube right now so I can't show you Soros talking about it, but I can find a quote in which he says, "The United States must stop resisting the orderly decline of the Dollar, the coming Global Currency and the New World Order."
RuffDraft wrote:Soros has even said, in his own words, that he wishes for a new world order. It's not just a passing idea, it's his whole scheme.
Except, if you watch the video, by "new world order," he's not referring to what you've been talking about, but a reorganization of global financial markets. As in, China takes a larger role as its economy expands to a larger percentage of world GDP, and the value of the dollar declines as the US economy, though still growing, becomes a smaller percentage of world GDP, and its role as a reserve currency declines. Soros pointed out that with the current economic troubles in the US, a weaker dollar would be expected and not all that undesirable. People save more, spend less, and import less. A declining dollar would help conserve/create domestic jobs as foreign competition becomes effectively more expensive. The orderly decline he's referring to is in contrast to a more sudden prospection-fuelled change, which would change fast enough to cause significant economic disruption. Resisting the "orderly decline" might cause a situation comparable to Black Wednesday if the financial situation does indeed go that way.

RuffDraft wrote:He's said so many, many times. (Please be advised that this is all from a simple google search of "Soros new world order," and though I tried to check every link, some of those pages wouldn't load for me) He's not joking, he's not philosophising, this is what he wants. Listen to him speak, read his books, research as you will.
Are you serious? Do you understand what Soros was talking about in the video, and how a number of those seem to be just making stuff up? I could critique those if you want, or you could make a point yourself and provide evidence to support it.

RuffDraft wrote:Soros sees America as a threat and wants it and everything it stands for destroyed. This man is not to be trusted. If you knew what this man is, and what he stands for, you wouldn't be calling it a conspiracy theory.
It's still a conspiracy theory because it involves Soros conspiring to do certain things. The question is whether or not it's correct.

RuffDraft wrote:Soros is not talking about wrestling. He's talking about an extreme Socialist "World Government" with a global currency that everyone in the world is governed and controlled by. You know all those examples I present that you say are unfair and don't represent "real" Socialism (etc.)? That's what he wants, but worldwide.
Even though "New World Order" could also reasonably refer to the fall of Communism, as in those Communistic governments he helped overthrow (some of the stuff you linked talked about statements made in 1992, when this would make sense in that context). And you haven't explained why a capitalist like Soros would want socialism like you're accusing.

RuffDraft wrote:But he doesn't feel bad about this. In at least two television appearances (1994 and 1998), he has said that he feels no guilt over having evicted his Jewish neighbors, or over the extermination of nearly a half million of his fellow Hungarian Jews. In the introduction of one of his books, he wrote: "It is a sacreligious thing to say, but these ten months [of the Nazi occupation] were the happiest times of my life… We led an adventurous life and we had fun together."
At which time he was 14, and essentially a gofer. He didn't exterminate the Jews himself. What do you propose he might have done as an alternate course of action?

RuffDraft wrote:He's also said, "I don't deny the Jews right to a national existence--but I don't want to be a part of it."
Soros is an international capitalist and secular Jew who never lived there. What would you expect?

RuffDraft wrote:This man is the 28th richest person in America. He is dangerous, and an anti-semite... And yet no one I talk to knows anything about him.
Of course, he is himself a Semite. But anyway, do you know much about the people tied for 26th richest,    John, Jacqueline, and Forrest Mars   ? Or, since Soros is currently #14, what about #13,    Sheldon Adelson   ?

BeeAre wrote:i waile upon a mightye axe withe a tyune...
I was following the thread before that, but I appreciate the Butcherede Englishe.

DaCrum wrote:A global currency sounds nice though. Wouldn't have to get it changed whenever you leave the country. I think the Euro is a good candidate to show the benefits of it.
Like FurrDraft's link outlined, the US Dollar is something of a de facto global currency for now. Actually abolishing national currencies so that ONLY one currency is used would cause a lot of problems - fortunately that's not on the table.
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Re: Weekly discussion (1/19-1/26): Those fascist commie traitors

Postby Rough Giraffe » Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:41 am

FurrDraft. That's actually kinda awesome.

You make a lot of good points. I agree with some and others not, but because of the merely passable nature of this internet connection, and because of my inability to bring up a website just by pressing "Enter," and because of my inability to bring up YouTube or websites with embedded video, it makes it difficult to do any kind of research. As an example, this page loaded for me in about 2 minutes and 15 seconds. And I do not have that much time to use the computer on average.

I do want to discuss George Soros some more. It seems some of my previous claims were unclear and require more evidence (and also I should avoid putting up videos that I cannot watch, lol). I'll do what I can with what I have, but I may take a little more time than you would expect me to.

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Re: Weekly discussion (1/19-1/26): Those fascist commie traitors

Postby Nox » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:49 am

For a moment it started to feel like one of Lawrence Kraft's rambles.

I have only ever seen Stewart's and Colbert's, but I do so enjoy them. I watch them primarily, to get a laugh. Although filtering out the bias when watching them is challenging (Which I find good sport by the way ^v^), much in the same way with other talk shows that have guests who at some point start taking things to a more serious tone.

Still I do find it ironic in that ideally, journalism is supposed to get the truth out there, and yet here and now (and then as well) practically stifling it, or rather abominating it. So to end it there, I'd say that there are two types of journalists in comparison to how there are two types of truths. One that is sincere, genuine fact (or something even close to it), and the other being a malicious and convenient one.

EDIT: And let's face it. A good fraction of the well-off aren't exactly sincere, are they?
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Re: Weekly discussion (1/19-1/26): Those fascist commie traitors

Postby Mathias » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:58 am

I've only read Nox's contribution to this discussion.
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Re: Weekly discussion (1/19-1/26): Those fascist commie traitors

Postby Nox » Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:46 am

You shouldn't. I've found the posts above to be far more entertaining than mine. But bless you :)

I forget myself though. We were speaking of politics, yes? Permit me to prattle then.

No doubt that some of you know of my country's change in management. That is to say, Mr. Aquino's crusade to rid my motherland's corruption. *chuckle* In terms of politics, I am no sage. But it doesn't take one to notice how fucked up it is here.

Every election it's the same thing. Politicians aspiring for no less than power, promise us candy and cake. And in this part of the globe, after the election is over, it has been noted that the politicians who win intentionally forget to keep their promises. My brethren are no better, for they themselves keep forgetting that the same politicians forgot to keep their promises and yet they re-elect him/her/it again back into office. Worse, they elect a new face but with the same style of mismanagement.

Every so often I would bitch about all these, and those ears so kind that would care to reply would ask me: If you know so much, then what do you think is wrong?. And I, in my most stoic stature would say that the average pinoy would forsake all but one thing.. Instant gratification. THOSE SUITS would in effect, give voters credit for their votes by way of offering freebees during campaign period. And once everything has been settled, they misguidedly feel that they are entitled to the privileges of their positions.

I believe it’s not just the politicians who are the culprits, it is also the voters who have very little scruples because collectively they have the values of a child. Mr. Aquino and his fucking fucking fucking promises can rot for all I care. It is just another form of instant gratification. We all know that it takes more than eradicating corruption to fix an economy. Anyone who falls for this trick should seriously have their head examined. The only reason that he's in office in my opinion, is because of his family name. His mother was a president beloved by the masses, His father.. a national hero, And his sister is a celebrated celebrity.

Haha, but anyhoo. I must be boring you all. Fact is, I hate politicians.
EVERY. SINGLE..

FUCKING

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THEM. D:<



EDIT: aaaand yes, I know I must be exaggerating. But I do find myself repulsed by them, yes I do yes I do :happy:
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Re: Weekly discussion (1/19-1/26): Those fascist commie traitors

Postby Valhallen » Mon Jan 24, 2011 3:36 pm

RuffDraft wrote:FurrDraft. That's actually kinda awesome.
Yeah, that's probably one of the better typos I've made recently.

RuffDraft wrote:and because of my inability to bring up YouTube or websites with embedded video, it makes it difficult to do any kind of research. ...
(and also I should avoid putting up videos that I cannot watch, lol)
Here is a transcript of the interview shown in the video.

RuffDraft wrote:I'll do what I can with what I have, but I may take a little more time than you would expect me to.
Fine with me. Just be sure to back up the points you're making.

Nox wrote:Every election it's the same thing. Politicians aspiring for no less than power, promise us candy and cake. And in this part of the globe, after the election is over, it has been noted that the politicians who win intentionally forget to keep their promises. My brethren are no better, for they themselves keep forgetting that the same politicians forgot to keep their promises and yet they re-elect him/her/it again back into office. Worse, they elect a new face but with the same style of mismanagement.
That doesn't mean that politicians are identical. If you have the choice of a giant douche, a turd sandwich, or Cthulhu, it's better to choose the lesser evil.

Nox wrote:I believe it’s not just the politicians who are the culprits, it is also the voters who have very little scruples because collectively they have the values of a child.
That's one reason I'd like logic to be taught in grade schools.

Nox wrote:We all know that it takes more than eradicating corruption to fix an economy.
True, but it's an important part. At least reducing it to tolerable levels - I doubt it can be practically eliminated.
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Re: Weekly discussion (1/19-1/26): Those fascist commie traitors

Postby NeoWarrior7 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:28 pm

Valhallen wrote:That doesn't mean that politicians are identical. If you have the choice of a giant douche, a turd sandwich, or Cthulhu, it's better to choose the lesser evil.

But I can't find Cthulhu on the ballot.
Those douches and turds in this two party system won't let him.
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Re: Weekly discussion (1/19-1/26): Those fascist commie traitors

Postby Yog » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:45 pm

NeoWarrior7 wrote:
Valhallen wrote:That doesn't mean that politicians are identical. If you have the choice of a giant douche, a turd sandwich, or Cthulhu, it's better to choose the lesser evil.

But I can't find Cthulhu on the ballot.
Those douches and turds in this two party system won't let him.

Cthulhu don't got shit on Nyarlathotep.
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Re: Weekly discussion (1/19-1/26): Those fascist commie traitors

Postby NeoWarrior7 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:47 pm

Oh fuck you Yog-Sothoth. You're just mad Cthulhu got his name on the books.
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Re: Weekly discussion (1/19-1/26): Those fascist commie traitors

Postby Icha » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:02 pm

Well, I don't know enough about anything to say if what nox says about politicians is correct, but if this is the case, a few must have tried to get into politics to stop this. What happened to those who went in and tried to break the cycle?
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Re: Weekly discussion (1/19-1/26): Those fascist commie traitors

Postby NeoWarrior7 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:03 pm

The either lose because they won't use the tactics the others will, or worse, they win and become the cycle.
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