Weekly discussion 24 (1/13/13-1/20/13): $1 trillion coin

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Re: Weekly discussion (2/23-3/2): Intellectual property

Postby BeeAre » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:12 pm

PunkyChipsAhoy wrote:I agree that the digital age is gonna be nice when it starts, but until then I'd rather get cd's for the music quality... at least for some albums.


??? cds are just digital music files anyway, the individual tracks are high quality.
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Re: Weekly discussion (2/23-3/2): Intellectual property

Postby PunkyChipsAhoy » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:15 pm

Well I don't usually get the sound quality that cd's give me unless I purchase them online. And if I'm gonna purchase an album online, I'd rather just.... ya know.
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Re: Weekly discussion (2/23-3/2): Intellectual property

Postby BeeAre » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:50 pm

PunkyChipsAhoy wrote:Well I don't usually get the sound quality that cd's give me unless I purchase them online. And if I'm gonna purchase an album online, I'd rather just.... ya know.


no i really dont if you purchase an album online you can put it on an Mp3 player which is more convenient than a CD player :[
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Re: Weekly discussion (2/23-3/2): Intellectual property

Postby PunkyChipsAhoy » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:43 pm

I meant to say that I buy the CD, rip it into my Zune HD and then put the cd in my car. The CD rip quality seems to be slightly better than the ones I can download off of [let's say] limewire.
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Re: Weekly discussion (2/23-3/2): Intellectual property

Postby Whatis6times9 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:48 pm

You have know your bit rate. Once you get over 256 it is hard to tell the difference, if you can tell the difference between 320 MP3 and Flac you either have a high dollar system and if you don't you are either superman or full of shit.
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Re: Weekly discussion (2/23-3/2): Intellectual property

Postby PunkyChipsAhoy » Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:40 pm

You've discovered me. I'm Superman.
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Re: Weekly discussion (2/23-3/2): Intellectual property

Postby Valhallen » Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:43 am

Weekly discussion 3 (3/3-3/10): Anti-vaccination movement

In the last couple decades, there has been sentiment against vaccinations, especially for young children, and it's become somewhat significant as of late. The idea is that multiple vaccinations can mess up the immune system, or that preservatives in vaccines cause autism. It's become common enough in some areas to compromise heard immunity, leading to the resurgence of locally eradicated diseases. Lately, Time interviewed a visible figure in the movement.

Thoughts? Perhaps more controversially, what should government health agencies do about it?
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Re: Weekly discussion (3/3-3/10): Anti-vaccination

Postby Rezby » Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:07 am

This Jenny McCarthy lady seems quite wacked to me.

And what could government health agencies do about it? Pass laws requiring children to get their vaccinations? That would harm more than it would help, I believe. Nothing, really, to be done, except spread the message that McCarthy doesn't have a valid point - and its not even sure that her child had even had autism when he was younger.
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Re: Weekly discussion (3/3-3/10): Anti-vaccination

Postby nicomon » Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:12 am

He did. Autism is genetic, and I'm clueless has to how people managed to relate it to vaccinations. (Or anything other than genes, for that matter)
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Re: Weekly discussion (3/3-3/10): Anti-vaccination

Postby Wazit » Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:27 am

It's just that some issues are blown out of proportion. Most likely scenario is that a kid HAPPENS to being on the way to become autistic when they got a vaccine. Mom comes in, notices that their kid is autistic and tries to pin in on something, namely the vaccine that their kid just got. Media jumps on the issue like a pack of hungry wolves, and other mothers soon began to fear vaccines due to herd mentality
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Re: Weekly discussion (3/3-3/10): Anti-vaccination

Postby Sentios » Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:12 am

The greatest problem I see with vaccines is that they are in effect no different from overuse of antibiotics. Much like diseases are finding ways around even our most potent medications it's not unthinkable that strains of the diseases we have vaccines for will mutate into tougher, meaner forms over time. Resurgence of diseases thought to have been eliminated should be all the proof needed to know that they can in fact survive even with every one being immune to them so any notions of 'purging' should be thrown out immediately.

The solution then is the same as with medication, use it only when it is neccessary... for vaccines that should be diseases that are have a high associated death toll. The very first thing that comes to mind is MMR, which if you look over them are really very minor diseases. However, at least in this state, it is/was a requirement to have it before entering a certain grade. If your kid didn't have it you would be fined and your kid wasn't allowed to attend school.

My biggest concern is the flu, which we are constantly spurring the rapid evolution/mutation of every single year.


As far as vaccine preservatives causing autism goes. The argument is basically that for some reason something in them can disrupt the normal formation of the brain in some individuals. It's not impossible in theory.


If you were going to look for a problem with concept though you should be far more concerned of the potential for negligence or a conspiracy of some form. Whether it be a batch of vaccine not being prepared properly and containing viruses at full strength or it be some agency slipping shit that will kill you into some batches for purposes like population control.
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Re: Weekly discussion (3/3-3/10): Anti-vaccination

Postby PunkyChipsAhoy » Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:34 am

I'll wait for next week's debate since I honestly feel no passion at all for this topic haha.
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Re: Weekly discussion (3/3-3/10): Anti-vaccination

Postby Wazit » Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:33 pm

Sentios wrote:The greatest problem I see with vaccines is that they are in effect no different from overuse of antibiotics. Much like diseases are finding ways around even our most potent medications it's not unthinkable that strains of the diseases we have vaccines for will mutate into tougher, meaner forms over time.

Nope sorry, vaccines do not act the same as antibiotics. The reason antibiotics was able to create tougher strain of bugs was because of natural selection. You kill off the weak bugs with antibiotics, and the strong ones survive. Strong ones breed and grow, hence the creation of superbug strains. Vaccines on the other hand, alter a person's immune system and has no effect whatsover on the bacterial population. So, no creation of superbugs. It is possible that a strain might develop that is able to get over the vaccine, but such a situation wouldn't happen for like many hundred years to come. Evolution doesn't happen that quick, you know. If vaccines were overused, we would all be dying of smallpox and polio right now.

Sentios wrote:My biggest concern is the flu, which we are constantly spurring the rapid evolution/mutation of every single year.

On the subject of flu, the reason they are able to mutate very quickly is because they are made up of many different units (H and N) that is able to be jumbled up and combined, unlike any other microbes. So creating a vaccine for one flu strain is gonna be redundant by the next season. That's why there is always the fear that a human flu and any other avian/swine flu combined. A virus that spreads easily among humans but has the danger of avian/swine flu is something to be feared

Sentios wrote:As far as vaccine preservatives causing autism goes. The argument is basically that for some reason something in them can disrupt the normal formation of the brain in some individuals. It's not impossible in theory.

Sure, it's not impossible in theory. But what say you to the dozens of clinical trials that have found no link between vaccines and autism?
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Re: Weekly discussion (3/3-3/10): Anti-vaccination

Postby Q.U. » Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:57 pm

On the subject of flu, the reason they are able to mutate very quickly is because they are made up of many different units (H and N) that is able to be jumbled up and combined, unlike any other microbes. So creating a vaccine for one flu strain is gonna be redundant by the next season. That's why there is always the fear that a human flu and any other avian/swine flu combined. A virus that spreads easily among humans but has the danger of avian/swine flu is something to be feared.

Swine flu didn't posses much of a threat per se either. It was a mutation between the two that was feared. So again it would still be better to be vaccinated, to reduce the chances of having both of these viruses.

Fearing vaccinations is simply another bogus movement that shouldn't even be there. Even if some vaccinations could cause autism those would be flukes of one in a 100 000, or more. It is still worth to have those 99 999 people vaccinated and healthy.

Speaking of diseases, I got something educative for those who shat brix before swine flu, while eating a fat, unhealthy hamburger from McDonalds. In 300 days guess what killed off the most people?

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Re: Weekly discussion (3/3-3/10): Anti-vaccination

Postby Grey » Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:37 pm

i was under the impression that everyone was over the swine flu scare that wasnt anything to be scared of to begin with
is this not the case?

also i think we should make a vaccine to cure the homo gene
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Re: Weekly discussion (3/3-3/10): Anti-vaccination

Postby Wazit » Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:40 pm

Grey wrote:i was under the impression that everyone was over the swine flu scare that wasnt anything to be scared of to begin with
is this not the case?

Pretty much the case. Doesn't stop people from vaccinating though, eh
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Re: Weekly discussion (3/3-3/10): Anti-vaccination

Postby BeeAre » Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:45 pm

Grey wrote:i was under the impression that everyone was over the swine flu scare that wasnt anything to be scared of to begin with
is this not the case?

also i think we should make a vaccine to cure the homo gene


you will discover that according to modern medical techniques that sort of vaccination and subsequent spreading of the vaccination (as to affect at the genetic level would be to make it extremely easily bondable) would harm all women everywhere also

soooooooooooooooo no gays + no kids, or both take your pic
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Re: Weekly discussion (3/3-3/10): Anti-vaccination

Postby Sentios » Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:46 pm

Wazit wrote:Nope sorry, vaccines do not act the same as antibiotics. The reason antibiotics was able to create tougher strain of bugs was because of natural selection. You kill off the weak bugs with antibiotics, and the strong ones survive. Strong ones breed and grow, hence the creation of superbug strains. Vaccines on the other hand, alter a person's immune system and has no effect whatsover on the bacterial population. So, no creation of superbugs. It is possible that a strain might develop that is able to get over the vaccine, but such a situation wouldn't happen for like many hundred years to come. Evolution doesn't happen that quick, you know. If vaccines were overused, we would all be dying of smallpox and polio right now.


You say that it wouldn't happen that quick, then turn around and give a short term illustration of 'right now'. However fundamentally all a vaccine does is manipulate the immune system to develop the immune response to counter disease being immunized. If for some reason the body can not completely eliminate it would be possible for a rapid mutation to occur.

However I'll let this go for the time being, the greater point I missed is that even without vaccines new strains could mutate from existing ones. Additionally the body of a person in which a mutation occurred would automatically try to counter it so the adaptability of the immune response wins out here normally.

Sentios wrote:On the subject of flu, the reason they are able to mutate very quickly is because they are made up of many different units (H and N) that is able to be jumbled up and combined, unlike any other microbes. So creating a vaccine for one flu strain is gonna be redundant by the next season. That's why there is always the fear that a human flu and any other avian/swine flu combined. A virus that spreads easily among humans but has the danger of avian/swine flu is something to be feared


Since this was based on the above I don't have much to say. However the question one has to wonder is why swine/avian flu are so much more deadly than the human flu. I have heard suggestion that it was engineered to be that way but I'm not going to jump the gun with that.

Sentios wrote:Sure, it's not impossible in theory. But what say you to the dozens of clinical trials that have found no link between vaccines and autism?


Sample size is too small, it doesn't meet some criteria of autism but is similar enough to the layperson, it's a very rare occurrence for reason X, extra attention to detail during production and administration because there's tests being done, etc.
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Re: Weekly discussion (3/3-3/10): Anti-vaccination

Postby Valhallen » Sat Mar 06, 2010 1:14 pm

Sentios wrote:
Wazit wrote:Nope sorry, vaccines do not act the same as antibiotics. ...
You say that it wouldn't happen that quick, then turn around and give a short term illustration of 'right now'. However fundamentally all a vaccine does is manipulate the immune system to develop the immune response to counter disease being immunized. If for some reason the body can not completely eliminate it would be possible for a rapid mutation to occur.
There are several relevant differences between vaccines and antibiotics (or antivirals as the case may be). An antibiotic or antiviral typically interferes with a single part of the target microbe's metabolism, and are applied to treat an existing infection (i.e. a microbial population of millions to trillions). There is therefore a large population to generate mutations, only one mutation is needed to provide immunity, and anything with that mutation has a very strong selective advantage. In contrast, vaccines are preventative, so they only have to counter small populations of microbes. They typically contain multiple antigens, each of which has multiple sites available for antibodies to attach. Further, the ridiculous variability of antibodies means that an individual's antibodies are more or less unique. Avoiding the antibodies produced by vaccination would therefore typically take multiple simultaneous mutations, and the innovations may have limited effect against someone else's antibodies.

Wazit wrote:On the subject of flu, the reason they are able to mutate very quickly is because they are made up of many different units (H and N) that is able to be jumbled up and combined, unlike any other microbes. So creating a vaccine for one flu strain is gonna be redundant by the next season. That's why there is always the fear that a human flu and any other avian/swine flu combined. A virus that spreads easily among humans but has the danger of avian/swine flu is something to be feared
[/quote]Besides the modularity of flu, it is an RNA virus, therefore lacking the better error correction of DNA, therefore mutating much faster than DNA bugs. It's also one of the most common and contagious diseases around, so there's always a gigantic population producing new mutations all the time, with strong selective pressure to produce differences from last year's population.

Sentios wrote:Since this was based on the above I don't have much to say. However the question one has to wonder is why swine/avian flu are so much more deadly than the human flu. I have heard suggestion that it was engineered to be that way but I'm not going to jump the gun with that.
I've heard that, due to avian and swine strains not being endemic to human populations, their antigens are very different from normal flu, therefore old antibodies are completely ineffective, rather than only somewhat due to relatively small yearly changes. Also, normal flu is strongly optimized to be contagious but NOT deadly, since deadliness would interfere with exposure to uninfected hosts. An imported flu would not have this optimization, while it may still be contagious enough to get around the world.

Sentios wrote:Sample size is too small, it doesn't meet some criteria of autism but is similar enough to the layperson, it's a very rare occurrence for reason X, extra attention to detail during production and administration because there's tests being done, etc.
How about this paper and its ten pages of references?
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Re: Weekly discussion (3/3-3/10): Anti-vaccination

Postby Valhallen » Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:35 pm

Weekly discussion 4 (3/10-3/17): Minimum wage

A minimum wage prevents the price of labor from dropping below a certain level. For many jobs, supply and demand result in higher prices, but for some, typically those with low skill requirements, the minimum wage is binding. This is a nice situation for the people employed at that wage, since without the law, they might be paid less. However, basic economics says that this has negative effects for employers and the unemployed, since with a binding minimum wage, employers would typically be able to hire more people at a lower wage, probably making the economy more productive than with the minimum wage in place.

That's not the only consideration though. Minimum wages were put in place to provide for the welfare of workers when the free labor market produced wages too low for an acceptable standard of living, and if the welfare of low-income people is to be prevented from falling below a given standard of living, some such mechanism has to kick in when the economy does not provide it. Nowadays, there are programs like Medicare and Social Security to do this too, which have their own costs and benefits.

Empirical data regarding the effects of minimum wage changes is mixed. Overall, there seems to be a negative effect on employment, but it varies by what each study looks at. This seems to suggest that small changes don't have much effect for good or bad, but the presence and wide use of illegal labor below minimum wage suggests that there is indeed a large demand for workers willing to work below the minimum wage.

So then, what to do?
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Re: Weekly discussion (3/10-3/17): Minimum wage

Postby Icha » Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:09 pm

If we increase minimum wage, doesn't the inflation rate magically go up?
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Re: Weekly discussion (3/10-3/17): Minimum wage

Postby Sentios » Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:01 pm

From my own experiences I'll just say that minimum wage is not enough to live off of.
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Re: Weekly discussion (3/10-3/17): Minimum wage

Postby Rezby » Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:35 pm

So the dilemma is thus: Either the worker gets a minimum wage, and everybody in the economy suffers slightly as the economy is not at optimum productivity, or the economy gets swell with the removal of the minimum wage, but the worker then suffers as they don't make enough money to live off of... although as you said, we have charities and government programs, surely those go to help somebody.

Minimum wage will never be removed, though, in my opinion. Even if the best and most convincing economists come on up and explain why minimum wage is harmful, the basic fact remains that without it, there will be employers who go back to the industrial revolution, and severely under-pay employees. Employees who, since they can't find a job elsewhere, are going to suffer.

And suffering breaks peoples hearts.

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Re: Weekly discussion (3/10-3/17): Minimum wage

Postby Kusang_Manalo » Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:44 pm

That's how Obama managed to get the seat.

Now that he got his seat, it's been a rocky road for him.

Minimum wage is just enough for food in a week. It's pretty hard to manage other things such electricity and house bills
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Re: Weekly discussion (3/10-3/17): Minimum wage

Postby BeeAre » Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:30 am

pure capitalism is a failure as a system as technology progresses
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