YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY INCOME TAX!! ...or not.

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YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY INCOME TAX!! ...or not.

Postby Billy A.D. » Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:55 am

www.freedomtofacism.com

I don't know what the laws for it are here in Canada, but I just saw this documentary that reveals that in the United States THERE IS NO LAW STATING THAT YOU MUST PAY INCOME TAX! Most people just assume it exsists, but this guy actually looked into it and found that the 16th amendment was never actually approved by the states in 1913. And therefor it gives no validity to the taxation of a persons labor, only corporate profits and gains. And this isn't some kooky conspiracy nut, this was an award winning film maker who asked people in the know. He asked lawyers, IRS employees, he even took an add out in the paper offering $50,000 to anyone who could show them the law saying that people have to pay income tax. Nobody could find that law, and the IRS refused to show it. Why? Because it doesn't freakin' exsist! The Supreme Court has also made dozens of rulings reinforcing that very fact.
:jawdrop:
I just thought it was an interesting piece of information some of you would like to be aware of. It prompted me to look over a few parts of the American Constitution, which you may or may not want to do yourself.
:happy:
Last edited by Billy A.D. on Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY INCOME TAX!!

Postby Mr. Froggy » Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:05 am

Income tax is usualy taken from your paycheck so for most people it doesn't matter, they are paying income tax. As for the validity of this topic, I call bullshit because tax evasion is a federal offense. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States
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Postby Mr.Button-Eyes » Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:13 am

Hmm. Objection. I call bullshit on this information of yours. And besides, all the conspiracy websites always claim to have sane reasonable professionals to back their claim...
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Postby Yoshi » Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:11 am

I third the vote of bullshit and up it with a pelvic thrust. Oh yeah!


I'll stop now :(
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Postby Billy A.D. » Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:26 am

Alright then, prove it, show me. And let's please use something a little more concrete than Wikipedia.
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Postby EagleMan » Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:32 am

I've found wikipedia reliable, they have tons of slaves just to make sure it stays correct and they watch the pages 24/7.

Also because every word on that page, has to be a lie.

And where did you get the idea wikipedia wasnt concrete? Have you ever found anything that was a lie that wasnt corrected within a day that is a frequently viewed article. (Not some french blacksmith in 1025 etc.)
Anyways ignore that, I've just found that people have developed that view as a stereotype.

And if you want different links, there is "EXTERNAL LINKS" at the bottom.
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Re: YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY INCOME TAX!!

Postby Casmiricus » Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:47 am

Most people just assume it exsists, but this guy actually looked into it and found that the 16th amendment was never actually approved by the states in 1913


Some days you just get that feeling that something spouted something bullshit-er-iffic on the forums. Usually I ignore that feeling, but by God I'm happy that I didn't ignore it this time.

*Cracks Knuckles*

Ahem...

*Cracks Neck from Side-to-Side*

Okay, we'll start off with the MOST important piece of evidence: The constitution itself, Article V, which deals with the process for Amendments:

The Congress, whenever two thirds of both houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution, or, on the application of the legislatures of two thirds of the several states, shall call a convention for proposing amendments, which, in either case, shall be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states, or by conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Congress; provided that no amendment which may be made prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any manner affect the first and fourth clauses in the ninth section of the first article; and that no state, without its consent, shall be deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate.


So, we need (At present), 3/4ths of the States (2/3rds of 50 is 38) to ratify an amendment to get it passed. However, in 1913 there only 48 states, meaning only 36 were necessary. But this is inconsequential, as 42 states ratified it. If you want the list and dates, by God I'll provide them to you.

Next, let's look at the Supreme Court's Early decisions. Please keep in mind(Constitution Article III, Section 2):

The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution, the laws of the United States, and treaties made, or which shall be made, under their authority;--to all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls;--to all cases of admiralty and maritime jurisdiction;--to controversies to which the United States shall be a party;--to controversies between two or more states;--between a state and citizens of another state;--between citizens of different states;--between citizens of the same state claiming lands under grants of different states, and between a state, or the citizens thereof, and foreign states, citizens or subjects.


Or in essence, to define and interperet the Law using the measuring stick of the Constitution, define (and possibly overturn) older cases, etc. We then look to Mr. Justice Butler's comments of 1926, 271 U.S. 170:

It was not the purpose or the effect of that amendment to bring any new subject within the taxing power. Congress already had the power to tax all incomes. But taxes on incomes from some sources had been held to be "direct taxes" within the meaning of the constitutional requirement as to apportionment. [cites omitted] The Amendment relieved from that requirement and obliterated the distinction in that respect between taxes on income that are direct taxes and those that are not, and so put on the same basis all incomes "from whatever source derived". [cites omitted] "Income" has been taken to mean the same thing as used in the Corporation Excise Tax of 1909 (36 Stat. 112), in the Sixteenth Amendment, and in the various revenue acts subsequently passed. [cites omitted] After full consideration, this court declared that income may be defined as gain derived from capital, from labor, or from both combined, including profit gained through sale or conversion of capital.


Now, just in case this nutjob wishes to claim that Congress did not already have the ability to levy taxes, I immediately point him to Article I, Section 8 of the constitution:
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;


(Please note that taxes are not required to be uniform throughout the United States.)

Or, put more succintly (Penn Mutual Indemnity Co. v. Commissioner, 32 T.C. 653 at 659 (1959), aff'd, 277 F.2d 16, 60-1 U.S. Tax Cas. (CCH) paragr. 9389 (3d Cir. 1960).):

In dealing with the scope of the taxing power the question has sometimes been framed in terms of whether something can be taxed as income under the Sixteenth Amendment. This is an inaccurate formulation [ . . . ] and has led to much loose thinking on the subject. The source of the taxing power is not the Sixteenth Amendment; it is Article I, Section 8, of the Constitution.


ANd let's not forget the definition of income, as decided in 1955, in 348 U.S. 426, Commissioner v. Glenshaw Glass Co.

Income is defined as any increase in wealth, excepting those for which a clear exception has been made, either through the legislative, executive, or judicial branches. Part of this is income from a Life Insurance return on a deceased relative, scholarships, and gifts.

Well, there we go, that blows enough holes in this guy's argument to put paid to it for good.

BUT JUST IN CASE! I will watch the entire movie for you guys and rebuke every individual argument he makes if you want me to. Hell, I'll even give you one right now.

He says:
"...this fraud, and was even cited, in a recent court case.

The screen shows "If you...examined [The 16th Amendment] carefully, you would find that a sufficient number of states never ratified that amendment." -U.S. District Court Judge James C. Fox, 2003

Uh... FIRST THING that pops into my head is that there is no source given for this, meaning that it could very well have been made up. I'm not saying that it WAS. BUt it could be, and failing to include a source is a major offense to credibility. You really need a source better than just who said it, you really nead the case number as well. Otherwise, it could just be something offhand.

Alternatively (and most likely), this judge is an imbicile. Once again, I can provide you with a long list of the 42 states who ratified it. AND THE MAJORITY of the claims that the 16th amendment was not ratified by 'X' state boils down to "They capitalized this word and it wasn't capitalized on the first form from the U.S. Congress. Therefore, IT IS INVALID!"

*Whew*

Well, I think that about sums it up. It's almost 1, and I've got a long day at work ahead of me. But my offer remains, I will watch the whole thing and debunk it step-by-step for you guys if you want.

Added after 47 seconds:

THAT enough for you, Billy?
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Postby Yoshi » Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:56 am

The guy's another Michael Moore wannabe. Cas, you are most excellent at US Law. Pity you guys will never discuss Australian Law, because that I know.
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Re: YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY INCOME TAX!!

Postby Casmiricus » Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:58 am

You know, could you point me to where this guy posted this ad for 50K if someone could disprove him? I'd like to collect... God, the things I could do with 50K...

Hell, I could buy myself a new Jeep Wrangler and keep it in gas for... A few months, anyways. Throw in an upgrade for my gaming rig... It's on it's last legs, could use a new processor and video card...

The possibilities are endless! And all because one stupid man decided to open his mouth.
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Re: YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY INCOME TAX!!

Postby Glahardt » Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:07 am

Bravo, Cas.
*Ponders*
I really need to brush up on this...

Added after 3 minutes:

Casmiricus wrote:You know, could you point me to where this guy posted this ad for 50K if someone could disprove him? I'd like to collect... God, the things I could do with 50K...

Hell, I could buy myself a new Jeep Wrangler and keep it in gas for... A few months, anyways. Throw in an upgrade for my gaming rig... It's on it's last legs, could use a new processor and video card...

The possibilities are endless! And all because one stupid man decided to open his mouth.
I LAWL'd. But yeah, you should totally look for the ad.
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Re: YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY INCOME TAX!!

Postby Marek » Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:08 am

Casmiricus wrote:You know, could you point me to where this guy posted this ad for 50K if someone could disprove him? I'd like to collect... God, the things I could do with 50K...

Hell, I could buy myself a new Jeep Wrangler and keep it in gas for... A few months, anyways. Throw in an upgrade for my gaming rig... It's on it's last legs, could use a new processor and video card...

The possibilities are endless! And all because one stupid man decided to open his mouth.


Just remember that that 50k will be taxed....hehe
but.. but.. what about the bunnies? where do they fit into the plan?
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Re: YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY INCOME TAX!!

Postby Glahardt » Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:15 am

Marek wrote:Just remember that that 50k will be taxed....hehe
ROFL. It's still good... Right, Cas?
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Re: YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY INCOME TAX!!

Postby Casmiricus » Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:45 am

See, the awesome thing is:

1) I'm a minor.
2) It would be a private transaction, meaning that I could *Probably* find a way to keep it untaxed. *Maybe.* Unless I had to take the bastard to court to get it.
3) Worst comes to worst, I'll pay the... 10-15% tax? Something like that? I'm happy with 87 cents on the dollar.

Especially if that dollar is really fifty thousand dollars. ^_^
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Postby Yoshi » Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:52 am

Hey, that's still $42,500 at 15% and that seems like a damn good deal to me :)

But don't bank (Heh, pun) on him ever paying. Taking him to court would only result in him leaving the country.
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Re: YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY INCOME TAX!!

Postby Rage » Fri Jun 29, 2007 4:10 am

There's no way to avoid getting taxed on that. Any amount of money you receive that is over $500 has to be reported to the IRS. Even if you're a minor, they'll take state and federal tax out of it. If you're over 18, they'll also take FICA and Medicare. So regardless, Uncle Sam is going to take his cut one way or another.
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Re: YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY INCOME TAX!!

Postby Casmiricus » Fri Jun 29, 2007 4:12 am

Hmmm... Perhaps....

Anyways, I'm off to bed now, but something I just saw jogged my memory:

I call bullshit on this information of yours. And besides, all the conspiracy websites always claim to have sane reasonable professionals to back their claim...


This reminds me of a law that should rank right up there with Murphy's:


Kolakowski's Law - For any given doctrine that one wants to believe, there is never a shortage of arguments by which to support it.
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Postby Glahardt » Fri Jun 29, 2007 4:39 am

Cas, you sound like a political science major... Are you?
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Re: YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY INCOME TAX!!

Postby Billy A.D. » Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:21 am

Casmiricus wrote:Some days you just get that feeling that something spouted something bullshit-er-iffic on the forums. Usually I ignore that feeling, but by God I'm happy that I didn't ignore it this time.

...

THAT enough for you, Billy?

:jawdrop:

...

...

...

Well fuck me sideways! :dead:

Uh... FIRST THING that pops into my head is that there is no source given for this, meaning that it could very well have been made up. I'm not saying that it WAS. But it could be, and failing to include a source is a major offense to credibility. You really need a source better than just who said it, you really nead the case number as well. Otherwise, it could just be something offhand.


Okay, first off, I agree with this part completely. Not that I'm in any position to dispute the rest of it. You've obviously done a Hell of a lot more research on this than I did, and for that I thank you. But having watched the movie AND read all that sh...stuff, one thing comes to my attention:

The definition of income.

Income is defined as any increase in wealth


After full consideration, this court declared that income may be defined as gain derived from capital, from labor, or from both combined, including profit gained through sale or conversion of capital.


These all refer to an increase, but labor is actually an equal exchange. You perform work for an empolyer, and you get equal money in exchange for that labor. There's no gain, therefor it doesn't fit the definition of income. (I'm getting this from the movie)

Alright, I admit it's not much to come back with considering everything you came up with. And right now I'm feeling someone trying to slap the building that just fell on him, with a fly swatter and a broken wrist.

But my offer remains, I will watch the whole thing and debunk it step-by-step for you guys if you want.


But since you made the offer, go ahead and watch the movie and tell me what you think. But for now, I have to sweep up the shattered pieces of my righteous indignation, and toss out the rest of those 9/11 documentaries my Dad gave me.
:anger:

Added after 11 minutes:

Casmiricus wrote:Kolakowski's Law - For any given doctrine that one wants to believe, there is never a shortage of arguments by which to support it.

Heh heh... That's quite a double-edged sword there. :tongue:
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Re: YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY INCOME TAX!!

Postby Matchoo » Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:31 am

Billy A.D. wrote:
Income is defined as any increase in wealth


After full consideration, this court declared that income may be defined as gain derived from capital, from labor, or from both combined, including profit gained through sale or conversion of capital.


These all refer to an increase, but labor is actually an equal exchange. You perform work for an empolyer, and you get equal money in exchange for that labor. There's no gain, therefor it doesn't fit the definition of income. (I'm getting this from the movie)


That makes no fucking sense. Of course there's a gain: money. Did this guy manage to rewrite the definition for "work" so that it's a substantial currency that one exchanges for real currency, or is he a retard?
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Re: YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY INCOME TAX!! ...or not.

Postby Nix » Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:47 am

This exact issue has been taken to court and ruled against several times.
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Re: YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY INCOME TAX!! ...or not.

Postby zepherin » Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:22 am

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Postby Marquis de Soth » Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:25 pm

Well either way, the Government will fight you every step of the way and they can lock you up until the matter is solved. It would kill you financially not to pay the tax.
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Re: YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY INCOME TAX!! ...or not.

Postby Casmiricus » Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:51 pm

(I apologize in advance for this post. I just woke up, and have no sugar of caffiene running in my veins. Also, The text is a bit blurry... My glasses have disappeared...)

These all refer to an increase, but labor is actually an equal exchange. You perform work for an empolyer, and you get equal money in exchange for that labor. There's no gain, therefor it doesn't fit the definition of income. (I'm getting this from the movie)


One problem with that logic: You ability to work is essentially limitless, while your employer's money is not. They are paying you for the use of that labor...

Okay, this makes sense in my head, but I can't get it from my brain to the keyboard right now. I'll try again in a bit, after caffiene and sugar.
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Postby zepherin » Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:59 pm

Couple of millionaires who are defiant in not paying income tax.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/new_ha ... s_say_yes/

And even if you don't believe it's legal the practical reason to pay income tax is that eventually guys with guns will come after you and insist that you pay. Eventually they are going to take the kid gloves off with these guys and come in hard and just fucking kill them. In this case it's better to have martyrs than open defiance. Because if they get away with it then others will start doing it. It's a bad cascade. So they'll play around messing with their power and such. Then they'll step it up with cutting off plumbing and just tear gassing the place. Then they'll get serious and the guys with guns will come in.

and the kid gloves are coming off
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Postby Marquis de Soth » Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:02 pm

There are ways to get around paying Income Tax. You need to have a full understanding of the rules around it and the loopholes that you can exploit.
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