The Legend of Korra (Spoilers, nukka! Beware!)

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Re: The Legend of Korra (Spoilers, nukka! Beware!)

Postby Mon-Kitsune » Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:51 pm

Your assuming that the trial would be run on Western lines. In the Avatar world, that might not be a guarantee. To me, the trial had some similarities to how a trial would have been held in Imperial China. I know the water civilization is more Inuit than Chinese, but the Earth Kingdom is sort of China in this world, and in the Korra world of cultural exchange, Earth Kingdom legal procedures could have become the norm (as the kingdoms with the best established beurocracies one would assume either Earth or Fire or a mix would dominate) And there IS some evidence that the writers of Avatar are familiar with Chinese legal proceedings (the winged hat Sokka put on when he was playing "Sherlock Holmes" on Kyoshi Island is a Chinese Magistrate's cap. ) In those, the "judge" IS the prosecutor (at least, for criminal cases and treason is a criminal charge) since he is the local magistrate (he's also the chief investigator, which is why Sokka refers to his hat as a "detective hat"). There IS no jury; honesty and accuracy is supposed to be enforced by fear of punishment (under Imperial Chinese law, if someone knowingly brings criminal charges against another person that are proved false, the bringer of charges is subject to whatever punishment would have been meted out should the charges have been proven true. This also applies to the judge himself, if he judges wrong, he could face severe penalties). It isn't a perfect match. For one thing Korra's father and the others were sitting (in an Imperial Chinese trial, all participants are obligated to kneel on the floor in front of the Judge's dais) and were not obligated to sign confessions (just as well, since the judge is permitted to use torture to get confessions in the case of the recalcitrant) But the similarities were eerie. I'm not denying the trial was rigged, but it was not as OVERTLY rigged as it might appear to us
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Re: The Legend of Korra (Spoilers, nukka! Beware!)

Postby Kusang_Manalo » Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:09 am

Whelp, it appears that the world has witnessed the first fugitive Avatar.

Oh great, Korra will have to talk to the Citadel. Real peachy.

And Eska... sigh... I expected her to be more collective when someone stole her muffin. Now, she's on an epic rampage.
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Re: The Legend of Korra (Spoilers, nukka! Beware!)

Postby MQuinny1234 » Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:02 am

I don't think anyone expected that she would have chased them down like that across, what I imagine is a fair distance.

Mon@Thanks for pointing that out. I didn't really consider that the writers would have used another view point like that.
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Re: The Legend of Korra (Spoilers, nukka! Beware!)

Postby Mon-Kitsune » Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:20 am

Well, it's a sort of obscure POV. I only know about it from all of those Robert van Gulik Judge Dee books I read as a kid (yes, this is the same "Detective Dee" from that movie of a few years ago. He was an actual historical person, the movie was based vaguely on an incident from late in his career (which means the actor they picked should have been in his sixties). Gulik fell in love with Imperial Chinese crime fiction, and while his stuff is his own creation, the historical background research is quite solid.
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Re: The Legend of Korra (Spoilers, nukka! Beware!)

Postby Slendy » Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:27 am

MQuinny1234 wrote:It's fun fact time with Kitsune.

Fun facts. About Chinese trials.
And laws, and hats.
MQuinny1234 wrote:Fun facts. Ta-da.

Lol, sorry, I had to. Just poking fun. :p

The way I see it, it's a rigged trial in a cartoon. I don't think they were drawing direct parallels between any real world trial proceedings. Having 1 person serve as judge, jury and executioner (possibly, had their death sentences not been revoked) was ideal for the plot. It's easier to believe that Unalaq can corrupt a single individual rather than a jury of the defendants' peers. Also, I'm a bit tired of seeing constant references comparing real world elements to those in the Avatar world. Yes, it is true that each nation takes inspiration from real world groups for their design. But that doesn't mean that they are an identical copy, all the way down to every law and tradition.

You even said it yourself, that the trial was similar to one of Chinese origin, but that the water tribes are not based off China. Any similarities you noticed were likely no more than coincidence. While the world may be at peace, I doubt they've all just started blending laws and traditions among the nations. The United Republic of Nations is the experimental venue for a blended society of all cultures. Since the world now has a place for all people to coexist, I think each nation will prefer to stay independent from each other, but on good diplomatic terms to prevent future wars.

Moving on, I find it a bit odd that all of Korra's main antagonists so far have been water benders (counting Tarrlok). I was seriously hoping that this season's antagonist would be a powerful spirit with a grudge against the Avatar and that Korra would have to defeat it with non-violent measures. When a problem comes up, her primary thought seems to be "Can I punch it until it's not a problem anymore?" I'd like to see something force Korra to think strategically for once rather than try to solve everything through brute force. She didn't defeat Amon through any tactical means. She got lucky. She just kept punching at him until suddenly one of her punches produced a blast of air. It seemed like we might get that chance this season when I saw how Unalaq dealt with the spirits, proving that brute force and violence aren't always the answer.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Unalaq and the water tribe civil war will just be a distraction and we will get a big spirit antagonist. But we're almost a third of the way done with the season now so hopefully it doesn't feel rushed. Grieffon, you're probably correct that Avatar Wan will be the one to teach Korra that brute force doesn't solve everything. But he won't appear until episode 7, and his story will take up 2 full episodes. After that, we'll only have 6 episodes to wrap up the story. I'm just seriously hoping that the pace isn't rushed like the first season was. Honestly, if they really wanted to do completely separate plots between each season, the seasons should have been made longer, like 20 episodes per season. Otherwise there just isn't enough time for proper character development and a plot flow that doesn't feel rushed. But the season hasn't ended yet, so I'll reserve my judgment until then.
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Re: The Legend of Korra (Spoilers, nukka! Beware!)

Postby Mon-Kitsune » Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:23 pm

I never said they were carbon copies (in fact I specifically said they weren't. But saying there is no connection is also erroneous. The writers have to get their ideas from somewhere. And if that place was simply "whatever we think would work" they'd need to either explain EVERYTHING about the avatar world, or the series would make no sense. The parallels are necessary as a framework to make the show make sense to us viewers.
As for the "adoption" bit, I didn't mean that the Water tribe was adopting other customs willy nilly. Your right Republic city is an experiment, but one that a fairly large part of the ruling powers of the nations are pretty committed to. If the Fire War taught the world anything; it's that isolation between the nations DOESN'T WORK. I'm not sure the world is headed for total homogenization, but it IS headed (hopefully) for one in which the nations interact freely and in that case you do get a lot of idea exchange. Unalaq methods are certainly dubious and the form of the world he wants unthinkable, but it is pretty clear that the goal of unifying the water tribes back into a nation is one that BOTH sides approve of probably all three (It's never be said outright, but I would imagine that, if the Northern and Southern water tribes were to re-unify as a nation, the Swamp Benders would also be offered an opportunity to join (either through emigration or by petition to the earth kingdom to make the great swamp a special water nation enclave of some sort. I suppose it sort of depends on whether the Swamp Benders consider themselves more allied to their fellow waterbenders or the nation that surrounds and protects them.) I wasn't so much suggesting that the Waterbenders had dumped their trial procedures in favor of those of another nation, but that they might not HAVE procedures of their own. We don't KNOW what kind of legal procedures are the norm there. The banishment seems to indicate that the Water tribes may still mostly run on a "tell the chief/an elder, he decides, his word is law" system. In which case, Uniloq's initial motion to simply have the conspirators arrested and executed was probably what would have been "tradition" (okay since they weren't members of his tribe, and he was on their land, he probably couldn't legally do ANYTHING to them without declaring war, but you get the idea. When Korra demaned a trial, they may have used the procedures of another nation because they didn't HAVE any of their own. We just don't know
I really don't think this is worth getting into a flame war over. I see parallels you don't. I find them significant, you don't. As the old British saying goes "Different people have different opinions, some like apples and some like 'inions." I find the similarities fascinating; the same way I found it neat that back in the original series, they went to the trouble of making the money look like Feudal Japanese and Ancient Chinese coins (though they did mix it up quite a bit) You see what you want in the series, I'll see what I want.
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Re: The Legend of Korra (Spoilers, nukka! Beware!)

Postby Slendy » Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:58 pm

Mon-Kitsune wrote:I really don't think this is worth getting into a flame war over. I see parallels you don't. I find them significant, you don't.

A healthy debate need never become a flame war. I just think you might be over-thinking the subject a bit. Plain and simple, that style of trial worked well for the plot, so that's how they did it. I do agree that the writers take inspiration from real world sources, but not everything in the show has to connect back to these sources in some way.
Mon-Kitsune wrote:The writers have to get their ideas from somewhere. And if that place was simply "whatever we think would work" they'd need to either explain EVERYTHING about the avatar world, or the series would make no sense. The parallels are necessary as a framework to make the show make sense to us viewers.

I beg to differ. There can be original ideas in the show with absolutely no parallel drawn to a real world source, and the viewers will still be able to understand it. Now, most people know how a basic trial works. Testimonies and evidence are shown, the judge/jury takes some time in private to decide the verdict, then the verdict is given. The lack of a jury doesn't automatically mean it's referring to a specific Chinese trial, especially when the basis for that conclusion is that the completely separate earth kingdom took inspiration from real world China for its design and there's a possibility that their legal practices may have carried over to the water tribe. I do agree with you that the water tribe most likely had a very primitive legal system for a long time with the chief's word being law. But as the Avatar world becomes more modern and democratic, people realize that these systems are outdated. So it would make sense for the water tribe to craft a legal system based off what they know. They've probably never heard of the idea of a jury, hence why the judge served that role.

I will agree to disagree with you on this, since you seem so adamant that this is based off an Imperial Chinese trial. You'll see things and I'll see different things, that's how it is. I do stand by my statement that you're over-analyzing this, though. I just think there are more important, plot-based subjects to be discussed here rather than Chinese trials and the usage of leeches/maggots. Maybe instead we could discuss how Korra's irrational behavior is likely to make things even worse. I can see a scenario where she asks the United Forces for help in the civil war and they turn her down, not wanting to take a side. Her immediate reaction will be to start punching things. Then people will be mad at her and even less inclined to help. I will say they've done a good job showing us an Avatar that could not be more of an opposite to Aang. Hopefully we get some good opportunities for Korra to grow and gain some wisdom. I still feel like she has yet to properly earn the Avatar state.
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Re: The Legend of Korra (Spoilers, nukka! Beware!)

Postby Mir@k » Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:33 pm

I think sometimes you guys give too much credit to the writers.
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Re: The Legend of Korra (Spoilers, nukka! Beware!)

Postby MQuinny1234 » Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:38 pm

Heh. That's always a possibility.

But considering the show, it's possible that they have to spend time looking into cultures and things, to make sure they don't do anything offensively incorrect. Or maybe they just cut corners sometimes.
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Re: The Legend of Korra (Spoilers, nukka! Beware!)

Postby Tenshi Nova » Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:41 pm

Offensively incorrect?
Remember the dude Kyoshi killed.
Mongolian reference I believe.
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Re: The Legend of Korra (Spoilers, nukka! Beware!)

Postby Mon-Kitsune » Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:52 pm

I agree that those things are more important. At the same time they are also entirely speculation based. When people want to talk about those subjects I am more than content to go silent and let them be talked about. I am a provided of what I see as real world basis/trivia, nothing more. As I see it, that is my primary function here. I don't know much of things like what the comic said, or the writers, I'm not that deep in. When I speculate, I'm usually wrong (remember I'm the one who thought Azula façade as little miss sadistic psycho was her real actually down and dirty nature mostly because I WANTED it to be (so I could identify with her better). Without some real world or semi factual basis to speculate on, I am too lost to feel confidant on making guesses on what will happen. I see patters where they are probably not there, and meanings deeper than the creators probably ever intended. It's just the kind of OCD person I am. Good for writing hard sci fi/fantasy, but not much else.
If you want some speculation (tenuous as mine is) I might think that Korra losing it could have even worse repercussions. The United forces staying out completely seems a little unlikely if only because recent history will have made them a bit uneasy about the whole "let them sort it out on their own" method as being effective. They can't really deicide not to be involved for the simple reason that they are going to be geographically. With (as far as we know, the Spirit portal not yet functioning in the manner Uniloq said it eventually would (allowing tribe member to basically teleport pole to pole) it is safe to say that any full scale war will mean a lot of Water Tribe warships traversing from one front to the other; right though Earth and Fire controlled waters and probably having regular sea battles when they meet in the middle with a lot of collateral damage to the merchant and civilian vessels who get in their way. What I think might happen is that the water tribe war might cause some in the United forces to suggest that this is reason to come down on both Tribes and ultimately, to work towards a FORCED full integration; basically a repeat of the Fire Nations plan; with the United Republic taking the place of the Fire Nation. Much as the death of Adolph Hitler in our world did not mean that there were suddenly no people who did not believe in Nazism, I have little doubt that there are still some in the world who really believe that Soizin's goal of a single unified empire is the correct one (as well as some who think the same of Amon's aims) And a fair number are probably in the United Forces officer ranks (it was made mostly of the Fire and Earth nations armies originally, so most of the original brass would have been former National Army officers; not all of which likely got where they were just by "obeying orders" Some certainly believed.
Speaking of Amon's aims, Korra's losing it could make her future more dangerous too. As the world's tech gets better and better, and there is less and less that "only the Avatar can do" her perceived value beyond the symbolic is likely to go down in the eyes of the average person, as indeed will benders in general (the moment someone invents a reliable hand held flamethrower, being a firebender loses quite a bit of it's relative "added value" to society). More and more the man in the street may consider the Avatar as little more than a symbolic figurehead, important for what she stands for, but not someone who should be involved in the actual running of the world. And when a figurehead starts being perceived as being "trouble" there may be some (both ex Amonites and others) who may think it is in the worlds best interest to speed up the transition to a newer hopefully more pliable Avatar (or indeed the elimination of the line for good). Korra could be risking a government that might say "toe the line,smile, and do what we tell you, if you know what's good for you."
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Re: The Legend of Korra (Spoilers, nukka! Beware!)

Postby MQuinny1234 » Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:59 pm

Liked the new episode. Knew it was too early to see everything as being how it is really.
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Re: The Legend of Korra (Spoilers, nukka! Beware!)

Postby SpiderTiki » Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:13 pm

I told my younger sister as we watched Korra that "Korra's becoming very bitchy, acting really spoiled, basically a brat. Whenever things dont go her way she just gets pissy with mako (despite her supposed revelation in episode 2 ) and flips a table like a kindergartner.

I shit you not, no more than 5 minutes pass in the show, and LO' AND BEHOLD she flips a fucking table. Only for the fact that she was about to    start a war, and makko kept it from happening   , because he was doing his job (while the avatar obviously, wasn't). I dont really like Korra as a character because she doesn't think about her actions, mak-makko?(however his name is spelled)   tried to give her evidence showing that the criminals may not have been Northern Tribe Waterbenders. She deliberately ignores the advice without so much as a single shred of thought.    This just furthers my belief Korra is an ineffective avatar, at the end of the 1st season she nearly fell apart without her other abilities to bend, proving (to me at least, im no psychoanalyst) that she needs that power to vindicate herself. Personally I think its her lack of forethought in anything that caused her to blindly trust someone SO DAMN OBVIOUSLY EVIL. I love myself a good headstrong character, even if they are a fuck up (ex: naruto , eren, HELL EVEN Jin Mo Ri ) but the shit korra pulls borders on either stupidity or just childisness, "I want what I want. Oh I cant have it?! TABLE FLIP"

Dont get me wrong, I still like the show, its got other interesting characters, but Korra seems to have degraded from last season into a child with god powers, powers which are, as Kitsune said, slowly becoming irrelevant to modern day technology.
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Re: The Legend of Korra (Spoilers, nukka! Beware!)

Postby OrangeBee » Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:01 pm

Louis wrote:
Dont get me wrong, I still like the show, its got other interesting characters, but Korra seems to have degraded from last season into a child with god powers, powers which are, as Kitsune said, slowly becoming irrelevant to modern day technology.


So, what your saying Is that as technology advances, Korra and the future avatars will no longer be needed. Can the Avatar even learn how to blood/metal bend at all.

Also It might be that as technology advances with things like Flamethrowers (As said before) they might not have a use for Korras abilities as much anymore. And Korra being used to being needed might change Korras child-like personality to a Fucking grade A bitch.
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Re: The Legend of Korra (Spoilers, nukka! Beware!)

Postby Mon-Kitsune » Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:12 pm

It's sort of a consequence of how she was raised trained. It's already been established that Korra was sort of a prodigy, even among avatars. That combined with the way she was trained at home by teachers who came to her, has, I think left her with a terminally inflated ego; one so deep rooted that not even the Amon incident has really, permanently eradicated it. Uniloq/ Tenzin were sort of right (my mind is blanking on which one said this and my computer isn't allowing parallel window opening now); Take away the avatars needing to travel to master the other elements, and you take away a LOT of their chance to develop a little humility.
I poeronallty found the last episode a little rushed, especially near the end we see    Uniloq's kids ordered to go and hunt down the Korra    and the next thing we know    they are already on her tail (we didn't even see when they sighted her)    and then suddenlt    this big spirit just pops out of the water right in from of her fails to be calmed and Korra gets eaten    I'm not saying any of this was bad, just that the events of the last 3-4 minutes of the episode seemed to be things that really should have been covered over about 15-20 minutes. It just felt rushed.
On the other hand the prez is pretty spot on. I like the sort of vaguely Teddy Roosevelt look (with a bit of Sun Yat Sen/Chiang Kai Shek thrown in), the clothing palette that seems to convey absolute neutrality (most of the people in Avatar still mostly dress in the "colors" of their respective nations. The Prez may wear green (Earth Color) but he wears it with purple (not really anyone's) as if to say "I hold no allegiance to any nation")
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Re: The Legend of Korra (Spoilers, nukka! Beware!)

Postby SpiderTiki » Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:21 pm

Considering some bending forms are just, specific to a group of people, Ex: sparky sparky boom boom man

Id say no, most likely the avatar would become some sort of prophet figure, rather than a leader and a ruler, but that's what the avatar was always meant to be, a bridge between this world and the spirit world, every basic form of bending was just an added bonus.

The Avatars will be needed, they always will, so long as the spirits need a representative, otherwise they gon fuck shit up. It's just that as things progress, the avatar will probably become something more akin to a spiritual adviser, rather than a nuclear warhead to e directed at those who seem to be a threat to peace .

I do not dissagree with any of what you are saying Mon. So far Korra has made it through, by either brute force or luck, that coupled with the fact that as far as avatars go, she's hot shit and she knows it makes a very bad avatar, like I said , take away her power and she's utterly crippled. there was no plan whatsoever to fight amon after she thought she lost her bending, just kept trying to punch her way through and got lucky, aang at the very least had a plan.
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Re: The Legend of Korra (Spoilers, nukka! Beware!)

Postby Grieffon » Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:10 pm

Anyone thinks Varrick is behind the bombing? He looks interested in how to gain support of republic city (when Bolin told him that people there respond well to "Republic City" and "fans"). Perhaps he wants to be the president.

Mon-Kitsune wrote:It's already been established that Korra was sort of a prodigy, even among avatars.

This is just me being a bit too concerned with bending, but so far I haven't seen this. Yes, she could bend earth, water and fire at the age of 4. But after the next 13 years of training + 6 months of having control over the Avatar state, she still doesn't seem powerful. When in the Avatar state, her bending still looks like that of a normal bender. I mean, this is Aang after 1 year of training in the same three elements and 1 minute of controlling the avatar state.

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Avatar Wan displayed the same ability, so I assume this is a technique taught to Aang by the previous avatars. I guess Korra's spiritual aspects is so poor she never contacted her predecessors in 6 months, but her bending should be more powerful, if not in technique than at least in power.

And do they even have any plans for Bolin other than him being a clown?
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Re: The Legend of Korra (Spoilers, nukka! Beware!)

Postby Mon-Kitsune » Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:33 pm

I said she was a prodigy, not an expert. "prodigy" just means you are good at something early, not that you STAY above the curve. As any child expert will tell you, plenty of people who start out with a bang peter out as they get older. By no means all but many. Perhaps "precocious" would have been a better word for Korra. That quick learning may not mean she is all that powerful, but what I could have done is given her a bit of a swelled ego, one her family and teachers (except for Tenzin) didn't do that much to get out of her. In fact that ego is probably what is keeping her bending from reaching Aang levels; if she ever really learns humility, she'll probably be able to pull of tricks like that. More and more Korra seems to be an example of "How NOT to raise and avatar"
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Re: The Legend of Korra (Spoilers, nukka! Beware!)

Postby MQuinny1234 » Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:31 pm

I don't think comparing her to Aang is necessarily a great way to go about things.

I mean, it's simply amazing that Aang became what he was with all he had to go through, whilst a good bit younger than Korra.

I dunno, she seems to have a lot of issues, I see it more as a lack of respect for...well, anything, rather than a lack of humility, not sure if that's entirely the same thing, but still.
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Re: The Legend of Korra (Spoilers, nukka! Beware!)

Postby OrangeBee » Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:35 pm

Aang had to deal with a war and find people willing to teach him when half the world wants her dead while Korra had people coming up to her just to teach her. This ego was probably from that and stopping Amon (I forgot the main baddies name from season 1). Remember, In episode one she was complaining about the extra training and then going on about defeating the baddie when she had help. If it weren't for Mako knocking out Amon for a bit, Game over men!

They probably just gave her the credit because.... AVATAR!
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Re: The Legend of Korra (Spoilers, nukka! Beware!)

Postby Tenshi Nova » Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:10 pm

For me the biggest difference. Aang never wanted to be the Avatar, which Korra says is the one thing she's always wanted.
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Re: The Legend of Korra (Spoilers, nukka! Beware!)

Postby OrangeBee » Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:33 pm

Tenshi Nova wrote:For me the biggest difference. Aang never wanted to be the Avatar, which Korra says is the one thing she's always wanted.



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Re: The Legend of Korra (Spoilers, nukka! Beware!)

Postby Mon-Kitsune » Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:08 pm

I think that a big difference may be in that learning to bend by 4. Aang was still learning Airbending at 13 (he was about to go off and learn the next skill soon, but he still hadn't done it) And the conversations seemed to show that even THAT was a bit on the early side. Roku didn't go off to learn his other skills until he appeared to be in his late teens, if not early 20's. So all of them had childhoods where they were just kids, or at least were treated more or less the same as comparable kids. Korra on the other hand, by showing she could bend outside her nation by 4, more or less has had tangible proof she was the avatar since pretty much as far back as she can remember and has always been handled as such. When Korra says that being the Avatar is all she has ever wanted, I'm not sure if she has any frame of reference. She's always wanted to be the Avatar because she's never had any opportunity to really conceptualize herself as ANYTHING else.
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Re: The Legend of Korra (Spoilers, nukka! Beware!)

Postby OrangeBee » Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:21 pm

Mon-Kitsune wrote:I think that a big difference may be in that learning to bend by 4. Aang was still learning Airbending at 13 (he was about to go off and learn the next skill soon, but he still hadn't done it) And the conversations seemed to show that even THAT was a bit on the early side. Roku didn't go off to learn his other skills until he appeared to be in his late teens, if not early 20's. So all of them had childhoods where they were just kids, or at least were treated more or less the same as comparable kids. Korra on the other hand, by showing she could bend outside her nation by 4, more or less has had tangible proof she was the avatar since pretty much as far back as she can remember and has always been handled as such. When Korra says that being the Avatar is all she has ever wanted, I'm not sure if she has any frame of reference. She's always wanted to be the Avatar because she's never had any opportunity to really conceptualize herself as ANYTHING else.


So being the Avatar is what is keeps Korra from going loony... Yeah... That's is one sad girl.

Seems like being the avatar is all she really knows how to be
Last edited by OrangeBee on Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Legend of Korra (Spoilers, nukka! Beware!)

Postby Tenshi Nova » Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:44 pm

I know this is hypocritical, but can you not quote and and make useless comments :p
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