OUCH!!! Touchy! - Competitors are hatin' on the Doujinshi!

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Postby DragonShadow » Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:03 pm

griffa772 wrote:Someone may have pointed this out and I accidently read over it, but I would like to point out the "levels of difficulty" in both comics. In my opinion it is much harder to base a story off of characters with incredibly loyal fan bases than making up your own. I'm not saying that making a story is easy, but basing one off of fully formed characters is much more difficult.


As an author, I can comfortably say that that is bullcrap. With fanwork you have a basis to go from, you have plotlines and character development built straight into the fandom. With original work, you create abolutely everything from the ground up. The world, the characters, their personalities, their relationships, the mechanics, the plotline, the story arcs, absolutely everything. Yeah it may seem easy to make stuff up off the top of your head, but doing a really GOOD original story is probably as difficult, if not more difficult, than making a really GOOD fanfic.
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Postby Fixen » Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:09 pm

Mandy wrote:I understood FLCL after watching an episode twice. It's freakishly addicting.

I second that.
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Postby Hasegawa Rayven » Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:12 pm

You know, this entire thread reminds me of the first "Adventures of Twisp and Catsby" Comic they had on Penny Arcade.

1st panel
Tycho: "Kevin Smith said that his new movie, "Jersey Girl" -Wasn't for critics- "

Gabe: Wow! I didn't know you could even DO that.

Tycho: PA isn't for critics anymore either, which means we're free to do stuff like this.

2nd panel
Twisp: How much does that weigh?

Catsby: Ham!

3rd Panel
Tycho: Bet you'd love to critisize that, Wouldn't you, you critics. But you can't!

Gabe: It's not FOR you...

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

As for what griffa772 has said, she has hit the proverbial nail on the head. It IS a lot harder to come up with good stories for existing characters with a loyal fanbase than it is to do it for completely original characters.

I know firsthand myself, being an author of Fanfiction. I wrote one chapter of my Metroid story, and I hadn't even gotten started good in the story when I was jumped on by fans screaming about how I was messing with the storyline when I said Samus sacrificed an arm to get her Power Cannon, when in the Canon storyline she didn't.

What people like that particular Reviewer and his friends need to realize is that when you sit down to read a Fanwork,(be it Doujinshi or Fanfiction...) it's similar to strapping yourself in for the Back to the Future or Terminator 3D rides at Universal. You don't have control, you're just along for the ride. If the ride is good, you'll come back. If it's not, then you'll probably never speak of it again. You aren't the pilot, The author is. If you don't like the way the plot is going, well then fine! Go out and write your own. Everyone is entitled to have their own interpretation of the original.

(Man, I think I was Channeling Ijuuin-san from the Rockman.EXE boards there.)

I'm jammin_2099, Aka Hasegawa Rayven, Signing off of this rant.

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Postby Fixen » Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:26 pm

Hasegawa Rayven wrote:What people like that particular Reviewer and his friends need to realize is that when you sit down to read a Fanwork,(be it Doujinshi or Fanfiction...) it's similar to strapping yourself in for the Back to the Future or Terminator 3D rides at Universal. You don't have control, you're just along for the ride. If the ride is good, you'll come back. If it's not, then you'll probably never speak of it again. You aren't the pilot, The author is. If you don't like the way the plot is going, well then fine! Go out and write your own. Everyone is entitled to have their own interpretation of the original.


I'm forced to shorten this quote a little.

That was all the good points anyone could have made. Thanks for reflecting all that in one paragraph, Rayven.

"Go out and write your own."
Since I dream up a fic after I see a chapter in any manga, I can't do that, now can I? XD
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Postby Hasegawa Rayven » Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:44 pm

You'd be surprised. I'm getting Ideas constantly, since I'll read a Fanwork or an original, and then after I've read it, I'll be doing something else and suddenly I'll remember something from the story I had read and inspiration'll hit me. It's why I try to keep a notepad handy. Sometimes I'll even be reading a completely different Manga, and I'll get the inspiration for something else.

The problem I see is that people that make these accusations of a comic or Fanfiction "Sucking" to quote them, are also people that just don't WANT to go and try to make their own. I Went out and only read Fanfiction for so long, and then I started saying,
"Well, I think this could be better, and you could change this, and that..."
I went through my own (To use a very descripitve phrase...) "Bitchy" phase. Then I realized, " Hey, I could use this Idea Myself, No one else seems to want to use it."

Thus was born My first Fanfiction Series, "Dimensional Travels", and now I've got a FF.net account with three main stories and about five songfics/oneshots.

All it takes is one good Idea, and then you just have to let your imagination run with it. I myself am just along for the ride with my Fanfiction, I can see the scenes playing out in my head, and then I just try to describe it as best I can.

I got it easy though, I get by with just describing the scenes to others with words, artists like Bleedman and other Webcomic artists have to actually create an image that accurately shows what they themselves can see.

I'd really like to see these Fans that say his comic sucks, get out there and make artistry even half as good as bleedman's, or Fred/Piro's, or Brian Clevenger's or any of the other webcomic artists out there. they're doing us the service, if you don't like their comic, don't read it.

It's really that simple.

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Postby DragonShadow » Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:04 pm

I got it easy though, I get by with just describing the scenes to others with words, artists like Bleedman and other Webcomic artists have to actually create an image that accurately shows what they themselves can see.


This may be off topic, but I have to correct this.

Writing a good story isn't just about writing down words, any more than creating a good comic is simply about drawing shapes. It's about what shapes/words you choose to use, and then how they connect with the rest of the word/shapes on the canvas, be it an art canvas or a blank page. Your job as a writer IS to show your audience, through words, what you see in your mind's eye. The format your art is in doesn't change the requirements for it. To suck a reader into a story, either through pictures or words, it makes no difference. They require the same amount of care and effort to be truly successful.
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Postby Jay » Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:17 pm

I think it's wrong to make accusations like that...
I mean I have nothing against people's opinions but saying it out right out of the blue and without getting your facts straight is just plain stupid... So Bleedman isn't the BEST writter on this planet. He's freakin using his who knows what language! It may be his second, third, fourth... It's really difficult... and I should know... I can fluently speak 2 languages, semi in one and semi understand another. My first language, cantonese, I have pretty good fluency but I know shit about the characters (it's been too long), my second is English (this may sound familiar) and after about 4 years of intense t.v. watching, speaking very little of my first, and reading/interneting for the 2 years after I have become quite good, third up is madirin which I suck at and fail to speak but I can understand some strings of words here and there, and fourth is french (I live in Canada btw) which I can understand and speak simpler phrases.

When I first started learning english it was horribly bumpy for me, but in a year or two I pretty much got my handle on pronunciation and reading but my writing still had a long ways to go. It was not till I got help on it did I get goodish at writing and that was only a year ago.

I was a reader of Girly but have stopped because of my laziness and unwillingness to try and read many webcomics at the same time.

And it's not the PPGD's fault Girly has fallen in the charts... It's most probably either the votes have started to slow down (which happens to many web-comics, take SoMT for an example, it was almost not there in the charts half a year to a year back but then they shot right through [via bribing hint hint] to first then fell back way down to about 30). Another possibility is the other comic's voters had a spike of voting craze and started voting again.

The reason why PPGD is second? Because the fans are willing to vote and have been asked to vote. The Girly only have themselves to blame if they fall in the charts... if you fall in the charts THEN START VOTING!!! I'm pretty sure a GOOD portion of the people only go on the site and vote on the days that it updates which is possibly why they aren't doing so good.

And to those people who think it's not entertaining... WHY THE HELL ARE YOU COMPLAINING!!! If it's not entertaining to you then don't read it. This is not really the comic to read if you're a junkie of funny but is it really your place to complain? N-O! And how does complaining/flaming the comic gonna help, especially if you do it on another comic's forum.

It's not like Girly taking a dip in the charts is making the comic popular so why are you mad? I'm pretty sure Bleedman doesn't even think about his competition and just does the comic purely out of enjoyment. And if he were to I'm pretty sure he wouldn't pick out Girly anyways. What leads anyone to think that Bleedman has any bitterness towards Girly? Did it trash his comic? Did it cause his Photoshop to screw up? I say no!
But really if they were to complain would they do it in a nicer manner? Like reason backed up by logical proof? If people can't back up there claims logically then they're just bitter that Girly took a dip and are just attacking the "new guy" and they took the "Gir-ly" thing as an opening.

Also my personal opinion... I absolutely love the art. Grammatical mistakes I really could really care less as long as it's not spelled that way on purpose or if you will, said in "instant messaging talk". The plot is fine. It's proceeding very well considering all the characters and their backgrounds (this does take place in a different world, different time, and with a mix of different characters from different or even polarly opposite t.v. shows so character "morphs" are bound to happen. Heck, I'd be suprised if there isn't especially in a serious comic like this where there is a certain line between the possibles and impossibles. One of these should be obvious... being in a different place and time DOES change a person and these character should be no different.) have not been completely unfolded yet.

I couldn't draw for my life's sake (though I'm pretty hard on myself but regardless I have no scanner) so I don't complain about anything. Though I have tried making sprite comics but I still didn't critique them without a basis. So yeah.
P.S.: Dang... Rayven got most of my points before I got them out.
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Postby Hasegawa Rayven » Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:54 pm

DragonShadow wrote:
I got it easy though, I get by with just describing the scenes to others with words, artists like Bleedman and other Webcomic artists have to actually create an image that accurately shows what they themselves can see.


This may be off topic, but I have to correct this.

Writing a good story isn't just about writing down words, any more than creating a good comic is simply about drawing shapes. It's about what shapes/words you choose to use, and then how they connect with the rest of the word/shapes on the canvas, be it an art canvas or a blank page. Your job as a writer IS to show your audience, through words, what you see in your mind's eye. The format your art is in doesn't change the requirements for it. To suck a reader into a story, either through pictures or words, it makes no difference. They require the same amount of care and effort to be truly successful.


I didn't say it was about just writing down words or just drawing shapes on a page. I was making a comparison to the two differences in Artistry. An Author can write a story, describing a wonderful scene with his/her words. But someone who expresses through drawn/painted/CG artwork, they create the scene with Images they themselves have worked hard to draw, color, get the placement right, etc etc etc.

I'm just trying to show how much the difference is between my own particular skill and artists.
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Postby DragonShadow » Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:01 am

I'm just trying to show how much the difference is between my own particular skill and artists.


You called writing comparatively "easy". And it is not. That was my point.
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Postby Hasegawa Rayven » Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:17 am

DragonShadow wrote:
I'm just trying to show how much the difference is between my own particular skill and artists.


You called writing comparatively "easy". And it is not. That was my point.


I apologize for not making it clearer. Very sorry on that, let me explain.

I said Writing was easy "For me". I didn't mean it was easy in general.

I can write pretty well in my own opinion. It comes easy for me. I however Absolutely stink at drawing. and it is infintely harder for me to draw than it is for me to write.

Writing itself is most definately not "easy". I'm stuck trying to get my sixth chapter on Metroid written. I can't seem to get the inspiration for my Ranma story, and I'm having trouble planning out the next section of my Dimensional Travels story.

hope that cleared things up.

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Postby Dorian » Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:31 am

Hasegawa Rayven wrote:You know, this entire thread reminds me of the first "Adventures of Twisp and Catsby" Comic they had on Penny Arcade.

1st panel
Tycho: "Kevin Smith said that his new movie, "Jersey Girl" -Wasn't for critics- "

Gabe: Wow! I didn't know you could even DO that.

Tycho: PA isn't for critics anymore either, which means we're free to do stuff like this.

2nd panel
Twisp: How much does that weigh?

Catsby: Ham!

3rd Panel
Tycho: Bet you'd love to critisize that, Wouldn't you, you critics. But you can't!

Gabe: It's not FOR you...

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-


Image

Actually the cat is Twisp and the imp is Catsby. Why? Who knows.

And while we're on Penny Arcade, my personal favorite:

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Postby DragonShadow » Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:58 am

Writing itself is most definately not "easy". I'm stuck trying to get my sixth chapter on Metroid written. I can't seem to get the inspiration for my Ranma story, and I'm having trouble planning out the next section of my Dimensional Travels story.


I was talking more about structure than plot. You know, how the sentences are worded? How to phrase things? When to use what tense? Using metaphors to proper effect? "Showing and not telling"? Down to the very kind of language you use. I've seen people who can think up the most powerful plots I've ever seen, but their writing style just fell too flat to give it its full power. It was disjointed, disconnected. Like a comic with great writing but lousy art. It's still enjoyable, but the lack of aesthetic flavor does hurt it. Regardless of what some people think, presentation DOES matter in written stories as much as in comics.
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Postby Dave » Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:40 am

my opinion. I could care less what Girly has to say. Never read it never will.
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Postby Decoy » Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:51 am

Mandy wrote:I understood FLCL after watching an episode twice. It's freakishly addicting.
FLCL is the greatest anime ever.

Yeah, that's right, I said it. Sure, you need to watch the thing a few times before you get what the hell is going on, but that just makes it even better.

I read Girly every now and then, and I think it's a decent webcomic to say the least. Different strokes for different folks, as the saying goes...
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Re: OUCH!!! Touchy! - Competitors are hatin' on the Doujinsh

Postby Aresz-kun » Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:39 am

Story: Quote:
GIRLY has dropped to NUMBER NINE on the buzzComix top 100!!
It's currently being beaten by THE POWERPUFF GIRLS DOUJINSHI.

ptoooiey! Take that-um...*ahem*...er...Yeh, there's been a lot of hype around the doujinshi.
Quote:
I think it's time for Marshmellow Kitty vs. Stupid Powerpuff Girls Fancomic.

All the reviews I've read hail the story enticing, the art gorgeous and the concept enginous....but I ran into some nasty comments that I'd like to comment on a *chuckles* rival comic's forum I was checking out.

I know a lot of 'eml probably saw the reacent 'pun' a small friendly joke in the comic but still, some are taking it quite seriously. The Girly supporters ground have always been the only place I've ever read bitter feedback for the comic. Perhaps it's in jeleousy/fanboyism for the comic or whatever but this litttle tid-bit may have made it worse. Just a small example:
Quote:
The mere existance of such a comic makes me die a little inside.

Quote:
Aww.. I like that doujinshi comic stuff. Even though the plot isn't all that amusing to me (the whole DeeDee thing... ick... who cares?)

Quote:
come on, this PPG doujunshi (.. or fancomic idno) looks pretty damn professional.

response:Professional or not, it's crap. It's not entertaining at all, so I don't care how good it looks.

Although I laugh, I gotta agree to some extent. The concept is great but the plot trails off, not to mention it isn't too solid or based on any 'foundation' or growing ground. It seems to jump from bell to the rowdy ruffs to jack to bell again...it's just how the plot progressed that by the time Deedee's story came I just didn't care too much. Meh, Bleedman said being a writer wasn't his strong suites anyway.
Quote:
The actual quality of color and art is rather impressive, I must say. But what makes it not work is the lack of a good story-line and very dull dialogue.

The dialogue is quite dull though. If it wasn't for the radiance of the visuals/setup or the colors then basing the comic on dialogue alone it is quite boring now that it's mentioned.
Quote:
The story isn't the syrupy sweet tripe most folks expect, which is probably what throws most folks off.

response: ...are you joking? It's exactly what I expect: unoriginal SHIT. And whatever idiot makes the comic must know next to nothing about Invader Zim to give GIR that horrible dialogue.

Yeh, Gir's appearance was kinda funy but it just didn't feel like Gir to me. Gir isn't stupid and annoying cute dog thing...he's more of the mentally insane type. Almost everything he says in the show is completly random. The only real random thing in the comic he's said was "Eat Me!".

So...yeh hate to side with the enemy but they raise some good points. Even still, the doujinshi to me is still one of the best reads on the internet.

Discuss feelings, thoughts, flames, etc.


...who gives a f***? :bird:

I hate people who always want to make competitions about such meaningless issues.... :cussing:
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Re: OUCH!!! Touchy! - Competitors are hatin' on the Doujinsh

Postby Jack Salem » Wed Dec 15, 2004 5:50 am

And how does complaining/flaming the comic gonna help, especially if you do it on another comic's forum.

What?, hey, hey, that wasn't me talking :shock: ! I took questions and responses on another forum and put 'em here for a (very good) discusion and sharing of opinions and experiences. I'd say this is a very 'not so boring' thread (it's got people posting anyway).

BTW, Penny arcade is pretty funny but my favorite has always been VGCats:
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Postby yalborap2 » Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:20 am

Bah.

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Those ones are WAY better.
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Re: OUCH!!! Touchy! - Competitors are hatin' on the Doujinsh

Postby Can't-tell-ya-my-name » Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:44 am

Ok... before someone comes to my door and shoot me to death... some short explanations...

First... I'm an editor at the animation department of Dreamworks (No, won't tell you who the heck I am and we're not taking resumes right now - what the heck? you want me to get fired?!!!)

Second... never posted before because I didn't feel like the need for, everything fine so far without me bugging around...

Third... PPGD is nice and is funny to watch. The art is gorgeous and it makes its job at catching the eyes.

Fourth... I have no idea who the heck most of these characters are. I know the PPG because my own lil rug rat loves the show, no other reason whatsoever. So I really couldn't care less who is acting a little out of character because I don't know who they are in reality. (Except for the pink PPG - Blossom... she's really too different here. Got to know her, my daughter wants to be Blossom when she grows up. Dang it!). Of course, thanks to my job I DO know how much it pisses off the fans the existance of out-of-character characters. Fans are fans of this or that character because of the way it acts and express themselves. That's what makes a character memorable in their minds and hearts. I could make a list of all the 2nds of Disney (the sequels of the original movies) that the fans would like to never have seen and burn them in hell for eternity to the responsibles... and yet, there's always someone who likes these "sequels"! Are they morons? Not really. Everyone is entilled to like and dislike what they see.

Now, at my work I have been given some rules that are the basis for most of what we (and I bet the other animation companies too - Disney, Warner Brothers, DIC, etc.) do. We need a PLOT firts. Yep, I know... some of our works sucks to some people. *sigh* No matter how hard you try you can't make everyone happy. (Others are just plain SUCKING and I still have no idea what the heck we were smoking when we came up with them and how we manage to make them into the movie box).

Since I work as an editor, and work hand by hand with storywritters... I can say that sometimes have been really easy to write original stuff. Really easy. I'm not saying it is all the time so please Mr. Dragon, don't take it personal. I've been in this business for more than 10 years... I guess that with experience you sort of become better or faster in writting stories. I don't know the secret formula. It just happens... and of course, it sometimes happens that we make sucking shit. It happens.

What's the point of the plot? Actually the plot is just for us (the artists and the editors) to know where the heck the characters are going to end at. MOst of the times we have to change the plot in the middle of the story because things didn't turn out the way we thought. THE POINT IS: in this case, only Mr. Bleedman have a rough idea of where he wants his story to head off. Do you like his story so far? Yes, keep enjoying it. No, well... you have two paths to choose from: Stop reading or keep going (you may like what is in store yet).

Now, I do see a problem with PPGD and I hope no one is going ot kill me just for saying MY opinion, right? (watching out for the mob with guns and knives gathering at my door). There are too many characters... is falling into the same mistakes as X-men - I know, X-men fans will hang me for this. Doesn't really matter what the fans may say, X-men have been loosing lots and lots of readers (and $$$) because there are far too many characters to keep track of. Sure X-men fans will yell that I'm wrong and all that... but trust me in this one, please. When your job is only guaranted by the amount of sales that it gets you have to follow the numbers. And althought we are an animation department... we have to follow how the comic industry and its different companies are doing (sales generating speaking). PPGD has too many characters and that's a slow killer in comics. Too few is just as bad... Is just a little hard to follow so many characters with their own personal agendas. We (DW) try to never have more than 10 characters to work with, and most of the times only 6 are the important ones.

So far that's the only problem I can think of. Like I said before, I don't know who all the other characters are. Barelly have time ot watch TV @_@ Actually, I saw once the little kid called Dexter... I don't like him. So, I really don't care what he does here in PPGD... I dislike him here as well XD

So, I hope I brough up some useful comments so that the mob at my door may let me be and get back to my job. Feel free to say what's in your heart... Just remember that I have a little girl to take care of, ok?? She still need me!!!! ^_^
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Postby Mandy » Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:24 am

I <3 Dreamworks Movies! Just watch a whole day of Nick and Cartoon Network and then you will see and know who all the characters are.
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Re: OUCH!!! Touchy! - Competitors are hatin' on the Doujinsh

Postby Aresz-kun » Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:41 am

Can't-tell-ya-my-name wrote:Ok... before someone comes to my door and shoot me to death... some short explanations...

First... I'm an editor at the animation department of Dreamworks (No, won't tell you who the heck I am and we're not taking resumes right now - what the heck? you want me to get fired?!!!)

Second... never posted before because I didn't feel like the need for, everything fine so far without me bugging around...

Third... PPGD is nice and is funny to watch. The art is gorgeous and it makes its job at catching the eyes.

Fourth... I have no idea who the heck most of these characters are. I know the PPG because my own lil rug rat loves the show, no other reason whatsoever. So I really couldn't care less who is acting a little out of character because I don't know who they are in reality. (Except for the pink PPG - Blossom... she's really too different here. Got to know her, my daughter wants to be Blossom when she grows up. Dang it!). Of course, thanks to my job I DO know how much it pisses off the fans the existance of out-of-character characters. Fans are fans of this or that character because of the way it acts and express themselves. That's what makes a character memorable in their minds and hearts. I could make a list of all the 2nds of Disney (the sequels of the original movies) that the fans would like to never have seen and burn them in hell for eternity to the responsibles... and yet, there's always someone who likes these "sequels"! Are they morons? Not really. Everyone is entilled to like and dislike what they see.

Now, at my work I have been given some rules that are the basis for most of what we (and I bet the other animation companies too - Disney, Warner Brothers, DIC, etc.) do. We need a PLOT firts. Yep, I know... some of our works sucks to some people. *sigh* No matter how hard you try you can't make everyone happy. (Others are just plain SUCKING and I still have no idea what the heck we were smoking when we came up with them and how we manage to make them into the movie box).

Since I work as an editor, and work hand by hand with storywritters... I can say that sometimes have been really easy to write original stuff. Really easy. I'm not saying it is all the time so please Mr. Dragon, don't take it personal. I've been in this business for more than 10 years... I guess that with experience you sort of become better or faster in writting stories. I don't know the secret formula. It just happens... and of course, it sometimes happens that we make sucking shit. It happens.

What's the point of the plot? Actually the plot is just for us (the artists and the editors) to know where the heck the characters are going to end at. Most of the times we have to change the plot in the middle of the story because things didn't turn out the way we thought. THE POINT IS: in this case, only Mr. Bleedman has a rough idea of where he wants his story to head off. Do you like his story so far? Yes, keep enjoying it. No, well... you have two paths to choose from: Stop reading or keep going (you may like what is in store yet).

Now, I do see a problem with PPGD and I hope no one is going ot kill me just for saying MY opinion, right? (Watching out for the mob with guns and knives gathering at my door). There are too many characters... is falling into the same mistakes as X-men - I know, X-men fans will hang me for this. Doesn't really matter what the fans may say, X-men have been loosing lots and lots of readers (and $$$) because there are far too many characters to keep track of. Sure X-men fans will yell that I'm wrong and all that... but trust me in this one, please. When your job is only guaranted by the amount of sales that it gets you have to follow the numbers. And althought we are an animation department... we have to follow how the comic industry and its different companies are doing (sales generating speaking). PPGD has too many characters and that's a slow killer in comics. Too few is just as bad... Is just a little hard to follow so many characters with their own personal agendas. We (DW) try to never have more than 10 characters to work with, and most of the times only 6 are the important ones.

So far that's the only problem I can think of. Like I said before, I don't know who all the other characters are. Barelly have time ot watch TV @_@ Actually, I saw once the little kid called Dexter... I don't like him. So, I really don't care what he does here in PPGD... I dislike him here as well XD

So, I hope I brough up some useful comments so that the mob at my door may let me be and get back to my job. Feel free to say what's in your heart... Just remember that I have a little girl to take care of, ok?? She still need me!!!! ^_^


Dear Mr uknown editor of DV,

Do not be afraid theangry mobs of fans will not hurt you.
As for me I could not help but agree with the points you mentioned above.

Yes I share the opinion that the original X-men was killed by the overpopulation of characters. This factor complicates the story too much and usuall leads the point where the plot gets divided and the stoiry quiute inconsistent and at the worst cases paradoxes may occur. It is clearly visible that in X-men evolution they are more careful and have a much fewer characters and only like 6-10 of them are constantly used (with villains included). I am an X-men fan but I am also looking at things in a broader perspective. As a fellow comic artist I also noticed a slight inconsistency about Mr Bleedman's story. However keep it in mind that Bleedman himself said that the stroy was created 2 years before he started drawing the comic so I am positive that he has the framework already figured out and introduced such a number of characters to fill up some spots and make the readers feel more familiar with the every character that appoars in the story. That might be one reason...

It worries me to see that the some fans already starting to complaint that some characters are acting out of character. Yes it is true however the problem is that the story requires this in order to be easier to understand.

For everyone:

Also we should keep it in mind that it would be next-to-impossible to incorporate 2 characters from different shows in 1 story and make them interact with 100% accuracy. Since the behavior of someone depends on the situation since everyone acts usually according to the situation and since the characters are in a situation we never saw them before I think it is understandable.

People change as they mature and as they learn new things see new places experience more things, Characters will change also whether you like it or not. Since this comic is made by Bleedman it is only he who will decide how will the characters interact and behave.

Take Zim for instance by now he is not the only one who wishes to invade the Earth so now he should choose to join up with the others who have the same goal or turn against them, the logical solution is alliance since in the other case Zim would have to defeat them in order to invade the Earth and nobody wants to do a job twice.

The powerpuff girls are different, true because they are in a whole new environment they are not superheroes anymore in Townsville since they are new to Megaville. There are no every day villains here (at least not yet) who come out of nowhere every 5 minutes and start to destroy the city, there is no mayor here how has the IQ level of a brick and can even open a pickle jar.

Blossom has finally found someone significant that is Dexter with whom she may share new experiences and discover new emotions. Her life is not about "Let s Roll!" all the time until the day she dies. Face it, she has other interests and has other needs. The girls will not be the same children forever. They will change soon and Blossom as the most intelligent one reacted to the change the fastest and went through some (OMG!!! can I say it?) character development. Bubbles and Buttercup who are less likely to accept change still stick with their own characteristics. But Buttercup also found the first new shock in Samurai Jack, since she never had to deal with grown up men who are also better fighters than her she simply confused on how should she approach him. Not to mention she had no ideols to look up to but finally she found someone who she can look up too and this is a whole new experience for her. In Townsville they were the heroes and everybody looked up to them, but they must learn to look up on others.

Those are jus t a few examples I mentioned there are a lot more...

In conclusion if you cannot accept change then don't nobody forces you to read the comic but if you do read it you must accept the ideas of the creators. Take it or leave it...
"I hate this job"
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Postby Verec » Wed Dec 15, 2004 9:19 am

One of ther problems with the proverbial cast of thousands is that you wind up with a cast of millions. Every charecter becomes a different person when they are with different people. Orson Scott Card talked about this in the intro to his second book in the Ender saga. He talked about how hard it was to make the five children of the family into real charecters because each one was exponentaly more difficult, and added to the complexity of the next. Yet as Joss Whedon said to make a show believable you need an ensamble.
Now I am not saying I am in favor of everyone using the horde of a cast, but a larger group can be used for more things than a maller, as long as the charecters are both instantly recognizable and deep. What that means is that you should be able to summarize a charecter in words not sentances. Yet there should be feelings, sentement and thoughts inside their heads.
"I saw it, there, in the sewers...for just a second. All hunched over, skin pale white beneath those rags...so many rags. The vermin crawled about his feet like idolaters at worship, and I swear that the wind drew breath in a frightened gasp at his passing. He wore cold like a cloak and I swear that behind that smiling golden mask he was laughing at me as his curved blade rose and fell, cutting through my men. It left wounds filled with crystals of salt...the screams...the screams...and the pants....Gods! The Pants!!!"
-Captain Urtin, who salted and ate his former soldiers.
"Jar-Jar you're a genius!"
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Re: OUCH!!! Touchy! - Competitors are hatin' on the Doujinsh

Postby Jack Salem » Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:24 pm

"Now, I do see a problem with PPGD and I hope no one is going ot kill me just for saying MY opinion, right? (Watching out for the mob with guns and knives gathering at my door). There are too many characters... is falling into the same mistakes as X-men - I know, X-men fans will hang me for this. Doesn't really matter what the fans may say, X-men have been loosing lots and lots of readers (and $$$) because there are far too many characters to keep track of."

YESS!! THANK YOU!!!! That's like, exactly what I was try6ing to say in my first opening post. First of all, no one even has to be a fan to know Blossom is acting WAAAY out of character if you've at least saw the show before. And also, like I said
"It seems to jump from bell to the rowdy ruffs to jack to bell again..."
You can't keep up with all these characters and still have the plot stable enough to carry out it's perpose without a few jaggedness in narration 'n timing. That's why video editors cut those deleted scenes out so the narration flow would be nice, natural 'n edgy yet strategically enticing and at times unpredictable. Here's my analysis:

Source of the problem: Due to popular demand, Bleedman was (I don't want to say FORCED but y' know) enclined to stuff as many Nick 'n CN characters in the comic as he possibly could (This being a top priority). In my opinion, even if the story was 2x crappier and more cliche it wouldn't make that much a difference. Most of us who see the doujinshi really want to the art and our favorite characters interacting and intertwining(sp?). That's why stuffing so many 'actors' into the play was essential to the comic's initial 'perpose' however, it's starting to overflow the plot.

Where is he going with this? I understand the comic is somewhat beggining but BY NOW, y' know we had enough content to have moved forward a LONG time ago but the comic is now FINALLY starting to move (bell/blossom show-down 'n stuff) wich could've occured way before hand. The comic began to feel a bit too dry for too long (that's where all the 'where's the action?' comments came from). This comic has like, ONE real scene besides the obvious Bell showdown in it's, so far, 4 chapters it's been around.

There are a lot of (and as of right now, too many) stand-by/standstill pointless characters that (although mind you this is still the beggining) have still popped up out of nowhere completly at random (RRB example) and (like almost any main character introduction) it still needs to be at least SOMEWHAT establish to us what kind of role they play in the plot. By going from one introduction to another he's not leaving any room for all these 'seemingly' important characters (Otto, Rowdy ruffs, Jenny, Bell etc) to develope any 'ground' to scale upwards IMO. He flashes in too many characters here and there and although it's fun to look at, it's hurting the narrative portion of the story.

"Yes it is true however the problem is that the story requires this in order to be easier to understand.

For everyone:

Also we should keep it in mind that it would be next-to-impossible to incorporate 2 characters from different shows in 1 story and make them interact with 100% accuracy."

I so disagree. The characters aren't REQUIRED to change for this story. I've seen more than 2 characters from 2 completly different contexes come together and interact in one unit before. I know you probably look up to B-man as somewhat of an artistic mentor but really if he can't do it that doesn't mean it's impossible (not saying you're assuming as much). Most everything in the story can merely be worked around in order to suit the characters context. It's not that hard to do actually, with this story anyway. It's not a matter that there seems to be a barrier that Bleedman can't breach without changing the story so he therefore alters the characters. He just doesn't know the characters well enough, bottom line. For example, Zim (so we're on the same track). However, Nearly impossible? I've seen it done all the time. All it takes is

Other people have tried to invade earth before on the Nick show "Invader Zim" and (come on) if you've seen like ONE (or two) episodes you'd know that Zim is way too stubborn/ignorant to just let anyone have a go at his mission NOR LESS side with anyone other than Irkan elites or superiors (I sound like a geek). He'll stop anyone who nudges in his territory whoever they are or he'll die trying. He's proven that on so many an occasion. The "Hahaha I'm here with the other badass bosses blah blah blah, screw my ultimate existance of life-being to please the irkin race, our mission has just turned around on the dime for almost no reason" role he's taken on is pointless cramping of the plot? However, there's nothing that can be done because any backstory for him would throw the audience off course again. Why is he here then? Probably merely to make an appearance because so many wanted to see him. What does he do for the plot? He has had a formal introduction, surely he does SOMETHING other than the fact that he's there. Since the comic has since moved on introducing newer characters I doubt whether or not Zim is gonna actually really do anything ever again. Thus an example of overstuffing known characters just for the concept and therefore overtaxing the already cramped narration of the comic (and we've still got Foster's home that's probably gonna come right next). I don't mean to totally dis Bleedman but this is where I as a fan see this comic going right now.

I don't care what anyone says, when you have a comic that seems to be centered primely on bringing as many Nicktoons/CN characters as you can in one collaberation, it's simply ideal-nay-essentail to stay true to the character's personalities or 40% of the comic's concept wont make a difference. Granted so many aren't even fans of the show, and yes these girls maturity does give them a slightly new outlook on life (EDIT: and note, maturity does make differences but like I said, Blossom acts like an entirely different girl altogether, like, eliminating 80% of her original character traits and having them totally replaced. There's a fine line between that and maturity) but the true craft is composing these elements while at the same time remaining to have a stable plot-run. That's my only beef with the Doujinshi. After evaluating, Bleedman has failed to do this. Even if staying true to the original show doesn't matter, that only means overtaxing the plot with more characters is even more of an issue because the 'oooh an appearance' shock doesn't make up for their stocking. So many of us seem to be making excuses for his(B-man) doing this but (you guys are gonna kill, rape, seizmic toss my ass to Texas for saying this but) god forbid he lacks a certain area of talent? :ogle:

That's not gonna stop me from reading the comic. Everything has pros/cons. I'm just expressing my concerns because I know B-man is reading this....somewhere......and might get something useful from it. However, his fan-mob is going to try their best to make him look good anyway, thus making B-man go "Ahhh hell, I'll leave it as it is", so I ask myself what's the point? The comic is gonna be a "hit" nommatter what he does for now on due to the fan-base hype.

Okay I'll shut-up now.
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Postby Fixen » Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:41 pm

Oh wow. 3 rants in a row. I really don't have time to read this, but to sum it all up, Mr. Dreamworks said what has to be said.

If you look closely, this isn't such a giant bunch of characters. The PPG's schoolmates get bios and personalities just to satisfy the curiosity of the readers, and in reality, they're just fillers. Hey, it really beats having a random classmate talking to them.

Comics do have a tendency to introduce villains first and see them in action later. It's rather hard to avoid that, but a scene showing the force of the enemies is a commonly powerful weapon.

About characters being OOC, we need that to happen. Otherwise, I'll not read this doujin simply because I'm really sick of kiddie shows, and their characters' personalities. However, in fact, the characters aren't so far off.

Bleedman had, obviously, started this doujin with the idea of a giant crossover. Perhaps he didn't have the experience to make the ends meet, but if we give the great author some time, we'll see something happen.
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Postby Jack Salem » Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:48 pm

Fixen wrote:Oh wow. 3 rants in a row. I really don't have time to read this, but to sum it all up, Mr. Dreamworks said what has to be said.

If you look closely, this isn't such a giant bunch of characters. The PPG's schoolmates get bios and personalities just to satisfy the curiosity of the readers, and in reality, they're just fillers. Hey, it really beats having a random classmate talking to them.

Comics do have a tendency to introduce villains first and see them in action later. It's rather hard to avoid that, but a scene showing the force of the enemies is a commonly powerful weapon.

About characters being OOC, we need that to happen. Otherwise, I'll not read this doujin simply because I'm really sick of kiddie shows, and their characters' personalities. However, in fact, the characters aren't so far off.

Bleedman had, obviously, started this doujin with the idea of a giant crossover. Perhaps he didn't have the experience to make the ends meet, but if we give the great author some time, we'll see something happen.

Not rants. Just passionate opinions from an editor, a comic artist, and a screenplay writer I guess. We're all just sharing (but this thread is dying now so...I'ma go now)
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Postby Why_am_i_here? » Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:13 pm

im just here cuz the comic is great but ive seen better pleez dont hurt me
Fucktards! YOU BITCH FUCKIN ASSWIPES!!!!!!!

Dear Dave, i dont care abou t what the people think their just fucktards
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