Americans...

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Re: Americans...

Postby Tenshi Nova » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:39 pm

I loved Men in Black. Not sure if that's where the quote originally came from, since it sounds like something said before. But I loved it.
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Re: Americans...

Postby Exodis » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:30 pm

Blood Lord wrote:This is why I hate people. People are stupid.

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Re: Americans...

Postby Birdofterror » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:59 am

Well here's my personal two cents on this subject.

Blind pessimism has helped no-one ever. BL followed that quote with "A person though can be intelligent."

People are blindly unaware of their own potential and live in ignorance and mediocrity, not always but mostly because it's a prison of their own design. Does the truth hurt? Is the truth too confusing to be understood?

I don't think so, but it does seam that the truth IS hard to look at, the truth separates us and breaks us into categories. The truth makes us a demographic, but that doesn't mean we aren't human.

Here's a truth: We are just a speck. In this cosmic game, we aren't even a comprehensible fraction of a fraction of the size of the galaxy, which in itself is barely even a comprehensible fraction of the universe. The universe has existed for billions of years and we haven't existed for even a hundred million. On an even smaller scale, civilized humanity only started existing just under ten thousand years ago. We ARE a demographic. We are simply animals doing what comes naturally. But you know;

People would rather have their childish views and ways and bring others down with them than see the truth.

And I am supposed to respect that? I am supposed to respect that opinion, that backwards, selfish, self destructive view that helps nothing- humanity least of all? No. I don't respect that, I never have and never will. Yet America seems to have split itself into two major groups over this regardless.

America spends so much time trying to prevent people from having their feelings hurt they seem to have forgotten what was really important. If we are going to be quoting movies; here's a quote.

"You want the truth? You can't Handle the Truth."
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Re: Americans...

Postby Q.U. » Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:15 am

What's that? People are rioting over the Zimmerman trial? They are saying that "we must obey the law!" and then they claim the judgement of an independent and unprejudiced judicial system to be null because they don't like the result? But of course they do! There's nothing more American than saying "the laws are absolute and everyone must obey them, except for me when I don't feel like it". After all, that's exactly the same thing the USA had said to the world court several times before, when they were judged guilty of sponsoring terrorism and unlawfully invading countries for bshit reasons, and asked to pay retributions. It is only in the American spirit to always support the law, unless you disagree with it. But don't worry, both China and Russia do pretty much the same.
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Re: Americans...

Postby Tenshi Nova » Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:12 am

We're not comparing ourselves to the Universe here. We're just trying to decide how much 'Murica can freedom while it freedoms.
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Re: Americans...

Postby Birdofterror » Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:03 am

Tenshi Nova wrote:We're not comparing ourselves to the Universe here. We're just trying to decide how much 'Murica can freedom while it freedoms.
Oh I know, I went a little cosmic, but that part of my rant is just as much a part as the rest of it.

It's to put into perspective just how childish things like that are. We will live and die on a speck of dust floating around in a vast nothing. While our lives won't necessarily hold more value if we 'admit' our lives have no value, dedicating your life to understanding the universe and at least 'attempting' to become a part of it is infinitely better than intentionally ignoring everything around you.

Q.U. wrote:What's that? People are rioting over the Zimmerman trial?
I have so many mixed feelings over that trial.

On one hand, he went into a neighborhood and shot a KID dead in his own fucking neighborhood and got away with it. This was after he hunted him down and provoked him multiple times.

On the other hand, cases like this with the races flipped are almost always completely ignored by everyone with the same amount of injustice. Sometimes less, sometimes more. And beside that point, he WAS still found innocent by a jury of his peers, as bullshit as said jury was.

The case went on for so long that I don't think even a single thing was left unchecked. It's just like the OJ trial. After a certain time it's not even about Guilty or Not Guilty that even gets people pissed off or happy anymore.

If you are mad that the trial went the way it did, you are the vocal majority and no-one will call you out on it. You are in good company.

if you are happy that the trial went the way it did, you are a minority, people will call you stupid, racist and other things.

Maybe; JUST MAYBE, the correct verdict was given? After all, it's the justice system. This is not a god damn popularity contest, this is a trial to decide a human being's future.

In my opinion? I have no idea. The trial reeks of foul play. (I mean a jury consisting of ONLY 6 White Women? Come the fuck on.) But it's over. I'm personally more pissed off at the reactions of both sides after the trial than the trial itself. That's the solid truth.
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Re: Americans...

Postby Wulfespinndel » Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:59 pm

I'll be honest by saying that I never cared about the trial. The reason why I want to talk a little but not too much about it at the moment is one of the issues being dealt with it and that is racism. It reminds me of one of Cheerios's recent commercials where there was an interracial family that consisted of a white mother and a black father and a daughter of both mixes. People made an issue over that, and I thought it was ridiculous because hey, Barack Obama is of the same mixed ethnicity too. Did we complain when we looked into his backstory? Nope.

I digress though. As a country we are beginning to become not only afraid of others but even ourselves. It's hard to make this post right now thinking about the trial because I don't want to believe that this trial was about racism. The only thing I could say about the trial now is that the way the judges made their decision for the trial is so wrong; it felt as if it was out of sympathy.

I'm sorry everyone. I just feel insecure about all of this. It doesn't make sense either.
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Re: Americans...

Postby Blood Lord » Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:51 pm

Seems like racism in the US is only used by the "minority" groups as a cry for attention or for political gain.

Who do we have here that is the closest to LA? Randori, right?
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Re: Americans...

Postby Whatis6times9 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:13 pm

Because whites have been so historically marginalized, ignored or abused in the United States whether it be politically, economically, legally or socially.
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Re: Americans...

Postby Blood Lord » Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:25 pm

In recent events, yeah.
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Re: Americans...

Postby Whatis6times9 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:30 pm

What recent events are you referring to?
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Re: Americans...

Postby True Order » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:23 pm

I don't know about any of those events so I'll leave that to Hemoglobin Lord.

But as far as the whole "being critics on these scenarios without doing anything about it" well I can only speak for myself.

And I have a love/hate relationship with the world.

On one hand I want the world to end and in a most horrifyingly slow manner with the masses suffering for crimes they committed and for crimes they could have in time.

On the other hand, I painfully wish for the world to realize the possibilities and to flourish unto our true potential while mantaining balance amongst ourselves and other beings.

So despite being human I have considered myself a simple observer in these matters and will continue to be such as long as I can.
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Re: Americans...

Postby EagleMan » Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:00 pm

Bird, both sides get to cut down on jurors as they want, they both chose to get there. Telling me it has 6 white women means absolutely nothing. Are you saying they can't give the same verdict as a mixed race or gender group? You're basically judging them for being white women with that statement.

Also, they did not necessarily deliver the "correct" verdict. Let's say you're in the jury. You come to think that there's about a 50% chance it was murder, or that it was self-defense. What would you do? I would pardon them. Because if I voted guilty, and he was innocent, then I've punished an innocent man. If I let a guilty man go free, well, that sucks, but the victim is already dead and there's nothing to be done for him, and it's better a guilty person goes free than in innocent person goes condemned. The fact that the jury voted not guilty does not mean they thought he was innocent. All it means is that they thought the risk of him being innocent was too high to take the risk of convicting a possibly innocent man.
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Re: Americans...

Postby Birdofterror » Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:16 am

When it comes down to "Punishing an Innocent or letting the Guilty go free," let me remind you that the trial wasn't about whether or not he shot a kid in his own neighborhood to death. It was about whether or not he had proper justification for doing so. Because he DID kill that kid. The not guilty verdict is born of "Justified Self Defense."

At that point, a lot of countries don't even have "Justified Self Defense." Killing is killing. A lot of countries don't have readily available firearms, so you'd be surprised how hard it is to actually kill someone without a weapon made to point at someone and make them dead. There are so many other things he could have done that WASN'T killing a kid half his size. Punching him in the face, knocking him out- shooting him in the leg: ANYTHING.

But at that point, putting him in jail isn't "Wrongful imprisonment" in my eyes. It's putting a murderer behind bars, and regardless of a guilty or not guilty verdict, that's what it would be because he DID kill a teenager in his own neighborhood. YOU DON'T DO THAT.

Also, let me be a little snide.
EagleMan wrote:You're basically judging them for being white women with that statement.
Rather, I am pointing out an abnormally 'small' jury of 'only' 6 people of the exact same demographic. The jury was not mixed so all discussion might as well have been someone talking and their voice echoing across the room until they're done. I am not pointing out that they are being women, by the way. Well, I did, but I wanted to point out more the fact that they were ALL white. AND in Florida. 6 white jurors in Florida. Victim is Black? Not Guilty.
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Re: Americans...

Postby EagleMan » Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:20 am

Still seems a little reverse racist to me. It's like saying if I, a white male, was put on a jury, then by that fact alone I could not accurately deliberate a case with a black victim.

Obviously he did kill the kid. He was an idiot with no common sense by following Martin. However if Martin was the one to start the fight, that doesn't mean it wasn't self defense for Zimmerman. Self defense is self defense. Just because the situation could've been avoided doesn't make it your fault. Consider victim blaming with rape. A woman is walking out at night, alone, with no self-defense training or weapons on her. She is wearing very promiscuous clothing and is walking on an unlit street in a shady neighborhood. A rapist sees her and takes advantage of her.

Should she have had more common sense? Definitely. Is it her fault? No. The rapist is ultimately the instigator and the one at fault. So if Martin was the aggressor even when Zimmerman helped create some of the circumstances, blame still rests on Martin.

Also you're basically arguing "Well they do it differently and other countries and I view any killing as murder so he's a murderer". Maybe if we had different gun laws here it wouldn'tve happened but that's irrelevant to the case itself.
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Re: Americans...

Postby Birdofterror » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:12 am

Nice. Rape. You know, you didn't have to put that in here. It's not even slightly related to this even in the context of your example in which it may even come off as incredibly insulting. :?

EagleMan wrote:Just because the situation could've been avoided doesn't make it your fault.

People with gun licenses are expected (Required) to know how to use a gun in a defensive way to save your life without taking someone else. Shooting people in the leg, arm, foot, hand, shoulder- ANYTHING. But he aimed for the heart. He tracked him down, followed him, provoked him and then shot him dead in his own neighborhood. This is not okay no matter how the fuck you cut it. No exception.

EagleMan wrote:and I view any killing as murder so he's a murderer

:roll:

Okay Eagle, tell me how killing a Teenager is acceptable in any format since you seem to think it is. Enlighten me. Keep in mind self defense in this point is bullshit because he's half your size and YOU have the gun. In fact, if anyone gets to draw the "Self Defense" card, it's Martin... he's the one who's dead.
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Re: Americans...

Postby Q.U. » Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:10 am

People with gun licenses are expected (Required) to know how to use a gun in a defensive way to save your life without taking someone else. Shooting people in the leg, arm, foot, hand, shoulder- ANYTHING. But he aimed for the heart. He tracked him down, followed him, provoked him and then shot him dead in his own neighborhood. This is not okay no matter how the fuck you cut it. No exception.

If you really think that then you're heavily misguided.
If you do decide to use a gun and shoot a person then you always go for the chest. Why? Because adding the few extra seconds of aiming at a non-vital part of the attacker's body and risking to miss it or for it not to debilitate the aggressor sufficiently may likely end in you getting killed. In regular self-defence cases once you do judge that the situation is dire enough to use a gun you don't try to aim to disarm. Unless you're a well trained cop or military person. It is difficult not to kill somebody with a gun (which is in fact why they should be abolished).

Also, your argument "murder is murder" is stupid when you apply it to law and punishment. I do happen to agree that killing another person is always bad, morally. And it becomes a burden, as it should, that you then have to carry. But as far as law is concerned killing a man can be justified. If it couldn't then we might as well put most of the military personnel in prison for manslaughter.
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Re: Americans...

Postby Tenshi Nova » Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:40 am

We could always make bullets ridiculously expensive.
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Re: Americans...

Postby Birdofterror » Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:00 am

Q.U. wrote:Also, your argument "murder is murder" is stupid when you apply it to law and punishment.
Law and punishment? MY argument is stupid? MINE?!

HE WAS A FUCKING TEENAGER! I.E. petty crimes would send him to Juvenile Hall, not prison. Child, Kid, Teenager, Easily influenced, hormonal, stupid. No fucking justification.

He was walking home. With Skittles. Got followed by an aggressive racist with a gun and got shot to death in cold blood, not self defense.

It was murder.

I'm not trying to attack you guys, just your stupid opinions.

I hope you understand.

Also no-one answered my question. Where is the justification for killing a minor?
Q.U. wrote:Unless you're a well trained cop or military person. It is difficult not to kill somebody with a gun (which is in fact why they should be abolished).
This however I agree with 100%.
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Re: Americans...

Postby Q.U. » Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:38 pm

He was walking home. With Skittles. Got followed by an aggressive racist with a gun and got shot to death in cold blood, not
self defense.[Citation needed]
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Re: Americans...

Postby Birdofterror » Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:39 pm

:roll:

Sorry. I've been kind of angry with this whole event and I don't really mean to take it out on you. It's just...

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Re: Americans...

Postby Blood Lord » Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:50 pm

I never saw it as a race thing...
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Re: Americans...

Postby Tenshi Nova » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:20 pm

Moral and ethical reasons aside.

If you think he's guilty, it's not the justice system. Simply put, all the anger should be directed to the accusers. If there was sufficient evidence to prove that he was guilty, then the accusers should be able to win out.

Either he's innocent or the accusers didn't do a very good job. Imho, I think blame should also be put on Rachel Jeantel, as well as the people that thought it was a good idea to have her speaking publicly. I am sorry, I realize it is insulting, but the fact of the matter is, she should not have been speaking publicly.
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Re: Americans...

Postby EagleMan » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:04 pm

Birdofterror wrote:Nice. Rape. You know, you didn't have to put that in here. It's not even slightly related to this even in the context of your example in which it may even come off as incredibly insulting. :?

It's called an analogy. Do you have a problem with the logical relevance of it? Are we having an emotional argument or a logical debate?

Birdofterror wrote:People with gun licenses are expected (Required) to know how to use a gun in a defensive way to save your life without taking someone else. Shooting people in the leg, arm, foot, hand, shoulder- ANYTHING. But he aimed for the heart. He tracked him down, followed him, provoked him and then shot him dead in his own neighborhood. This is not okay no matter how the fuck you cut it. No exception.

As said, that is not the case. You are trained to shoot for the chest. Extremities are difficult to hit in a panic situation and also do not stop a determined aggressor.

Also, you are still presuming facts. The only person who really knows what happened is Zimmerman. It could've been self-defense, it could've been murder. Just because he's the only survivor does not magically mean he was guilty.

Birdofterror wrote:Okay Eagle, tell me how killing a Teenager is acceptable in any format since you seem to think it is. Enlighten me. Keep in mind self defense in this point is bullshit because he's half your size and YOU have the gun. In fact, if anyone gets to draw the "Self Defense" card, it's Martin... he's the one who's dead.

You point out exactly how it's self defense. You have the gun. What good is a gun in self-defense if you don't use it? If you wave a gun and a person attacks you anyways, then you use the gun. It makes no difference if they were unarmed.

There's also the fact that being a minor is irrelevant. A minor can attack you. I'm a pretty big guy, but that doesn't mean a 16 year old still can't try to beat the crap out of me if he wanted to. Does that mean I just sit there and take it? No, it means I defend myself, and because he was stupid to attack me, I easily defeat him. That line of logic makes women attacking men and men unable to retaliate okay.
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Re: Americans...

Postby Tuor » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:15 pm

Blood Lord wrote:I never saw it as a race thing...

Part of why people are saying that it is a race thing is that they contend that Zimmerman would not have been suspicious of a white kid, but because Trayvon was black he assumed he was up to no good.
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