Faith in humanity

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Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Whatis6times9 » Mon May 27, 2013 7:45 pm

noxux wrote:It´s funny because many people think god is real and is white but never think that god is black man.

It's because how gods are imagined ties into the predominant ethnicity of the area or at least the area from where the religion started or gained traction.
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Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Tuor » Mon May 27, 2013 7:45 pm

Bingo bango bongo
"Suddenly Frodo noticed that a strange-looking weather-beaten man, sitting in the shadows near the wall, was also listening intently to the hobbit-talk. He had a tall tankard in front of him, and was smoking a long-stemmed pipe curiously carved. His legs were stretched out before him, showing high boots of supple leather that fitted him well, but had seen much wear and were now caked with mud. A travel-stained cloak of heavy dark-green cloth was drawn close about him, and in spite of the heat of the room he wore a hood that overshadowed his face; but the gleam of his eyes could be seen as he watched the hobbits."
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Re: Faith in humanity

Postby noxux » Mon May 27, 2013 7:47 pm

Whatis6times9 wrote:
noxux wrote:It´s funny because many people think god is real and is white but never think that god is black man.

It's because how gods are imagined ties into the predominant ethnicity of the area or at least the area from where the religion started or gained traction.

Yeah but now days the people never have think on a black god except on the movie of Morgan Freeman was God.
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Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Whatis6times9 » Mon May 27, 2013 7:51 pm

noxux wrote:
Whatis6times9 wrote:
noxux wrote:It´s funny because many people think god is real and is white but never think that god is black man.

It's because how gods are imagined ties into the predominant ethnicity of the area or at least the area from where the religion started or gained traction.

Yeah but now days the people never have think on a black god except on the movie of Morgan Freeman was God.

Because Christianity is a european religion, european gods are predominately white even going into mythologies and even gods with dark complexions would still have what is considered white facial features.
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Re: Faith in humanity

Postby noxux » Mon May 27, 2013 7:54 pm

Whatis6times9 wrote:
noxux wrote:
Whatis6times9 wrote:
noxux wrote:It´s funny because many people think god is real and is white but never think that god is black man.

It's because how gods are imagined ties into the predominant ethnicity of the area or at least the area from where the religion started or gained traction.

Yeah but now days the people never have think on a black god except on the movie of Morgan Freeman was God.

Because Christianity is a european religion, european gods are predominately white even going into mythologies and even gods with dark complexions would still have what is considered white facial features.

Well, that explains everything.
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Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Maru » Mon May 27, 2013 7:59 pm

In regards of faith in humanity, I've just recently come to the conclusion that there's only good, bad, and stupid people, the latter I have the most problems with having to deal with. I suppose listening to some good rap could fix that.

As for religion, I'm a Christian that really doesn't care all that much about religion (aside from fornication and shit) at this period in time. I guess I'm in favor of letting people do what they want if it doesn't give them an asshole vibe. It's actually funny, though; most of my friends are Atheists and I just found out one of my friends is Agnostic.
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Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Whatis6times9 » Mon May 27, 2013 8:11 pm

It's true of all religions. Take Hinduism for an example, they have a god named Shiva. Shiva is blue, but Shiva has traditionally Indian facial features, even then those facial features on artwork change to be more in line with the facial features of the dominant ethnic or cultural group of the area. So there are groups of christianity that believe in a black god or jesus, but those are small churches that are 90%+ black and are far off the mainline of more traditional european originated or white american originated branches. Hell, ever seen a Korean Jesus statue; he's definitely not 100% white.
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Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Wulfespinndel » Mon May 27, 2013 9:31 pm

Speaking of a Korean Jesus or anything Asian relating to it, that reminds me...
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Re: Faith in humanity

Postby EagleMan » Mon May 27, 2013 9:59 pm

So Maru is that friend an atheist or a theist?
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Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Tuor » Mon May 27, 2013 10:00 pm

lol
"Suddenly Frodo noticed that a strange-looking weather-beaten man, sitting in the shadows near the wall, was also listening intently to the hobbit-talk. He had a tall tankard in front of him, and was smoking a long-stemmed pipe curiously carved. His legs were stretched out before him, showing high boots of supple leather that fitted him well, but had seen much wear and were now caked with mud. A travel-stained cloak of heavy dark-green cloth was drawn close about him, and in spite of the heat of the room he wore a hood that overshadowed his face; but the gleam of his eyes could be seen as he watched the hobbits."
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Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Vegedus » Tue May 28, 2013 4:10 am

EagleMan wrote:This is why most agnostics and atheists are actually "agnostic atheists", meaning they do not believe in a God, but they believe it cannot be proven either way. A gnostic atheist is a person who believes that for a fact God (any sort of god) cannot be real, which is a silly position. An agnostic theist is someone who believes in god but thinks that god will generally be unknowable/unprovable.

Are we doing this? It seems like we're doing this.

I believe in "burden of truth", that something can be considered to not exist, until some amount of proof of existence have been presented. I have heard of no rigorous scientific theories showing the existence of a good. No peer-reviewed journals, no nothing. Nothing has been presented that even indicate a likelihood of a god existing. Granted, this does not prove a god CANNOT exist, but you cannot prove that about anything. We cannot prove that the physical world exists at all, that anything outside our minds are as we perceive it. Absolute truth isn't something available to humans. Science is simply a framework for approximating truth, where we assume something is false until proven true, and something considered true is only such until contradicted and proven false.

For all useful definitions of "prove", it is proven that god does not exist. So what does that make me?
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Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Tuor » Tue May 28, 2013 4:44 am

That's pretty much how I feel too
"Suddenly Frodo noticed that a strange-looking weather-beaten man, sitting in the shadows near the wall, was also listening intently to the hobbit-talk. He had a tall tankard in front of him, and was smoking a long-stemmed pipe curiously carved. His legs were stretched out before him, showing high boots of supple leather that fitted him well, but had seen much wear and were now caked with mud. A travel-stained cloak of heavy dark-green cloth was drawn close about him, and in spite of the heat of the room he wore a hood that overshadowed his face; but the gleam of his eyes could be seen as he watched the hobbits."
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Re: Faith in humanity

Postby EagleMan » Tue May 28, 2013 4:49 am

It depends on what kind of god you're talking about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_a ... ve_atheism

You may be a positive or strong atheist. However this terminology is inherently fuzzy. A strong atheist is one that says no gods exist. There are no Roman gods, there are no teapot gods, no Christian gods, no spaghetti gods, all sorts of gods as humanity likes to imagine them do not exist at all.

Obviously if a god supposedly has scripture written from him, it becomes easier to test that god, so one could be a gnostic atheist towards a specific god but an agnostic atheist towards all other possible gods. I.e. if a person says "My god is real. I can prove it. I will ask he strike you down, and he will do so". Then you aren't stricken down. So if what that person says is true, the only logical conclusion is that it is impossible for their god to exist. So you can say you are a gnostic atheist as it pertains to that god. But that doesn't disprove all other gods people have out there.

Either way, as I said, the terminology is fuzzy, because you can define what a god is in a million different ways, and every member of every religion with a god has their own idea of what that god is to them. You have about 2 billion Christians and they all have their own idea of what Jesus is like, so there's 2 billion different definitions of Jesus out there from Christians alone. But just for future reference, even most English speaking people won't know such subtleties, because there's really no good reason to learn about this terminology if you're already comfortably settled in your own religion.

As you say though, "this does not prove a god CANNOT exist, but you cannot prove that about anything." This is why I said earlier it's a rather silly thing to be a gnostic atheist, since you're basically taking the same leap of faith you object to in religious people. But to be either an agnostic or gnostic theist is not as silly, at least when we're talking about maintaining an internal logic to your thoughts and beliefs.

So generally you qualify as an agnostic atheist, but I bet you'd be willing to say you're a gnostic atheist towards Jesus, Allah, Vishnu etc. For instance, I would say it's at a minimum possible there's some god out there, and he might not even pay any mind to Earth at all, but I can easily dismiss Zeus as a possible deity, because there is detail to him, and that detail is falsifiable.
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Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Asmodai » Tue May 28, 2013 4:54 am

I just find the notion of "God" to be silly... To me it always felt like people think the entire universe revolves around humanity, because clearly God created everything, including the entirety of the universe, and we're shaped after God's image.

It's like saying the sun revolves around the earth.
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Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Q.U. » Tue May 28, 2013 6:40 am

Vegedus wrote:Nothing has been presented that even indicate a likelihood of a god existing.


It's like asking for nitrogen to oxidise iron. An argument for a person who completely fails to comprehend the limitations that stem from the definition of a supernatural being.

you can define what a god is in a million different ways

The definitions have one consistency. And that is the reference to the "supernatural" quality of any god. Which immediately renders all of your discussion about "proof" completely moot.
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Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Vegedus » Tue May 28, 2013 12:15 pm

Ah, yes, that's a hairy ball of yarn. "Supernatural" is in itself to me a contraction. How can something be above "nature" when nature is, well, everything? The concept behind gods, magic and superstition isn't that it's "beyond" the laws of the physics and impossible, because well, if it was impossible then it wouldn't happen. It's simply that we don't understand it, that it doesn't fit into current(!) science. If god descended upon earth and let us study him/her/it, it would take some time, but we would find the internal consistency of his powers and amend our understanding of the natural world to fit, even if it meant throwing the first law of thermodynamics out the window. It would no longer be supernatural, and it wasn't to begin with, in a sense.

This doesn't mean we could necessarily why his powers work. Science doesn't consider "why", it considers how. Many things doesn't have an explanation why they happen. Why does the higgs boson have the properties it does, why is 1+1=2? The things we as humans can perceive in the natural world have a why, deeper, smaller causes, but eventually you're gonna hit a point where something just "is". Why a god functions like it would would perhaps be unexplainable, but it doesn't make it any more supernatural than the most fundamental forces of our world.

EagleMan wrote:So generally you qualify as an agnostic atheist, but I bet you'd be willing to say you're a gnostic atheist towards Jesus, Allah, Vishnu etc. For instance, I would say it's at a minimum possible there's some god out there, and he might not even pay any mind to Earth at all, but I can easily dismiss Zeus as a possible deity, because there is detail to him, and that detail is falsifiable.

Nope. I would assert that you can prove that any god cannot exist, for any useful, contained definition of "god" and any useful definition of "prove". I'd personally call that strong atheism, you're asserting that that's silly, and I disagree. You cannot prove anything at all, zero, nothing, in an absolute sense, but in the scientific sense of the word, it can proven that no god exists. In the same way it can be proven that teleporting mammals doesn't exist, for instance.

I disagree that the specificity makes it easier to disprove a god. Your example is too specific. How is disproving that a god, who, for instance, can create suns and stuff, but has never interacted with earth, easier than disproving the existence of gods in general? In science, the method for disproving both is the same: Until some evidence has been presented for their existence, you don't need to.

If it seems weird that I talk so much about science, keep in mind that the ultimate goal of science is the acquisition of truth and knowledge. Having supplanted philosophy, it is imperfect, but the best available tool we have to know about anything in our world.

Tuor wrote:That's pretty much how I feel too

Hm, curious: What would you self-identify as?
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Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Tuor » Tue May 28, 2013 2:18 pm

I just call myself agnostic. I may not think exactly as you do though, now that I re-read your posts. For me, I do not think there is a god until someone can prove to me that there is one, and so far everything I've encountered point to its non-existence, especially for the existence of a Judeo-Christian god.
"Suddenly Frodo noticed that a strange-looking weather-beaten man, sitting in the shadows near the wall, was also listening intently to the hobbit-talk. He had a tall tankard in front of him, and was smoking a long-stemmed pipe curiously carved. His legs were stretched out before him, showing high boots of supple leather that fitted him well, but had seen much wear and were now caked with mud. A travel-stained cloak of heavy dark-green cloth was drawn close about him, and in spite of the heat of the room he wore a hood that overshadowed his face; but the gleam of his eyes could be seen as he watched the hobbits."
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Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Morpheus » Tue May 28, 2013 3:10 pm

Randori wrote:Well I wonder SOMETIMES whether he exsists or not. I'm an on-and-off agnostic. I know, it's a bit odd.

Have you tried studying the bible itself to learn more about him?
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Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Blood Lord » Tue May 28, 2013 4:48 pm

but in the scientific sense of the word, it can proven that no god exists.

Oh? I would like to see the scientific claims and studies that have been done on this.
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Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Vegedus » Tue May 28, 2013 5:02 pm

Ugh. My whole point is there doesn't have to be for it to be "proven". Just like I don't have to prove we aren't living in the matrix to assert that we aren't. Re-read the damn post, I've explained the logic thrice now.
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Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Morpheus » Tue May 28, 2013 5:05 pm

I just want to point out that a religious discussion inside a forum will not turn out well in the end.
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Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Tuor » Tue May 28, 2013 5:07 pm

Aye, it's like those things you're not supposed to discuss at a party, except we don't mind talking about the third one.
"Suddenly Frodo noticed that a strange-looking weather-beaten man, sitting in the shadows near the wall, was also listening intently to the hobbit-talk. He had a tall tankard in front of him, and was smoking a long-stemmed pipe curiously carved. His legs were stretched out before him, showing high boots of supple leather that fitted him well, but had seen much wear and were now caked with mud. A travel-stained cloak of heavy dark-green cloth was drawn close about him, and in spite of the heat of the room he wore a hood that overshadowed his face; but the gleam of his eyes could be seen as he watched the hobbits."
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Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Vegedus » Tue May 28, 2013 5:16 pm

Morpheus wrote:I just want to point out that a religious discussion inside a forum will not turn out well in the end.

Eh, I've had this discussion three times on this very forum now, and neither were civil, but all increased my understanding of both my own viewpoint and that of the "opposition". No one ever agrees on the internet and it's rarely without it's flames, but it can still be an illuminating and worthwhile conversation. I think it's fine. What place is a better medium for high-brow discussions than the forum? Is that not what the form was originally invented for?

Plus, while he may be aware of it, Eagleman pretty much dumped a huge bit of flame bait and I couldn't let it stand.
Tuor wrote:I just call myself agnostic. I may not think exactly as you do though, now that I re-read your posts. For me, I do not think there is a god until someone can prove to me that there is one, and so far everything I've encountered point to its non-existence, especially for the existence of a Judeo-Christian god.

Ah, yes, I did remember you being an agnostic. Funny thing is, I don't think we disagree on the idea of the knowability of a god, merely semantics and definitions of words.
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Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Blood Lord » Tue May 28, 2013 5:20 pm

I think it is interesting to see and understand people's views on this, so long as they remain civil about it.
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Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Blood Lord » Tue May 28, 2013 5:22 pm

Vegedus wrote:Ugh. My whole point is there doesn't have to be for it to be "proven". Just like I don't have to prove we aren't living in the matrix to assert that we aren't. Re-read the damn post, I've explained the logic thrice now.

No need to get testy there.
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