Faith in humanity

Enter At Your Own Risk (Shit Gets Cray Cray).

Moderator: Mod Squad

Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Tuor » Tue May 28, 2013 5:24 pm

Vegedus wrote:
Tuor wrote:I just call myself agnostic. I may not think exactly as you do though, now that I re-read your posts. For me, I do not think there is a god until someone can prove to me that there is one, and so far everything I've encountered point to its non-existence, especially for the existence of a Judeo-Christian god.

Ah, yes, I did remember you being an agnostic. Funny thing is, I don't think we disagree on the idea of the knowability of a god, merely semantics and definitions of words.

That seems to be true
"Suddenly Frodo noticed that a strange-looking weather-beaten man, sitting in the shadows near the wall, was also listening intently to the hobbit-talk. He had a tall tankard in front of him, and was smoking a long-stemmed pipe curiously carved. His legs were stretched out before him, showing high boots of supple leather that fitted him well, but had seen much wear and were now caked with mud. A travel-stained cloak of heavy dark-green cloth was drawn close about him, and in spite of the heat of the room he wore a hood that overshadowed his face; but the gleam of his eyes could be seen as he watched the hobbits."
Rest Easy Ethan
Moderator

User avatar
online
 
Posts: 18433
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:22 am
Gender: Male

Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Grey » Tue May 28, 2013 8:02 pm

jesus is the light you guys are all goin to hell
Image
I'm NORML and I VOTE
Soul Silver Friend Code: 0260-2900-0828
Suave Brit

User avatar
offline
 
Posts: 11158
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:08 pm
Gender: Male
Sexiness: Godlike

Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Tuor » Tue May 28, 2013 8:22 pm

If I die and I show up at the the pearly gates I'll just be like "Ok, I was wrong. I totally accept Jesus as my lord and saviour" and Peter will be like "k go ahead" and then I'll high five him as I stroll in
"Suddenly Frodo noticed that a strange-looking weather-beaten man, sitting in the shadows near the wall, was also listening intently to the hobbit-talk. He had a tall tankard in front of him, and was smoking a long-stemmed pipe curiously carved. His legs were stretched out before him, showing high boots of supple leather that fitted him well, but had seen much wear and were now caked with mud. A travel-stained cloak of heavy dark-green cloth was drawn close about him, and in spite of the heat of the room he wore a hood that overshadowed his face; but the gleam of his eyes could be seen as he watched the hobbits."
Rest Easy Ethan
Moderator

User avatar
online
 
Posts: 18433
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:22 am
Gender: Male

Re: Faith in humanity

Postby noxux » Tue May 28, 2013 8:28 pm

If you said Jesus backward it sounds like sausage.
"The best thing about life is not knowing what will happen, what we do shows who we are" -иохчх
Pabst:"Aww, you're no fun Noxux.
A Fight in a Flash
I am a very tall midget
User avatar
offline
 
Posts: 299
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:02 pm
Location: Floating in outer space
Gender: Male

Re: Faith in humanity

Postby EagleMan » Tue May 28, 2013 10:10 pm

Q.U. wrote:The definitions have one consistency. And that is the reference to the "supernatural" quality of any god. Which immediately renders all of your discussion about "proof" completely moot.

Plenty of people define God as being the universe itself, and that doesn't apply. People have even worshiped the Sun as a god for being life giving. Supernatural is not necessarily a quality (though it is a common one) of how people have defined god over the ages. You're free to call that a stupid way to define god, but it isn't an exception I just made up for argumentative purposes, it has been a normative definition.
Vegedus wrote:Nope. I would assert that you can prove that any god cannot exist, for any useful, contained definition of "god" and any useful definition of "prove". I'd personally call that strong atheism, you're asserting that that's silly, and I disagree. You cannot prove anything at all, zero, nothing, in an absolute sense, but in the scientific sense of the word, it can proven that no god exists. In the same way it can be proven that teleporting mammals doesn't exist, for instance.

I disagree that the specificity makes it easier to disprove a god. Your example is too specific. How is disproving that a god, who, for instance, can create suns and stuff, but has never interacted with earth, easier than disproving the existence of gods in general? In science, the method for disproving both is the same: Until some evidence has been presented for their existence, you don't need to.

If it seems weird that I talk so much about science, keep in mind that the ultimate goal of science is the acquisition of truth and knowledge. Having supplanted philosophy, it is imperfect, but the best available tool we have to know about anything in our world.

I called gnostic atheism silly because you're asserting a claim without sufficient evidence, which would presumably be what an atheist objects to in religion, which is where my point about specificity came in. If there was a god who could create suns, there would be a mechanism by which that is done, and our telescopes would see stars suddenly appearing in the sky, rather than by their normal method of formation. That detail about the god being able to create stars allows us to test that god by observing the creation of stars. Unless how the god creates stars happens to perfectly align with how we understand stars to be born, in which case you're just saying the laws of science are god - either way, it gives us three possibilities: we prove that god by seeing him form stars, or we disprove him by seeing no stars being formed by a god. Or we attribute that godly power as being possible under the purview of science.
Morpheus wrote:I just want to point out that a religious discussion inside a forum will not turn out well in the end.

Not if it's all atheists arguing with each other over semantics.
User avatar
offline
 
Posts: 13872
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:24 pm
Gender: None specified

Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Vegedus » Wed May 29, 2013 6:09 am

Eh, the agnostic vs atheist can be plenty heated. Though it's true as you assert that those terms don't really mean what people think they mean, and it's actually a different word vs word discussion. Anyway, I do remember having this discussion many years where our dearly depart MD suddenly texted me over IM in all caps, all but calling me and an arrogant, close-minded prick. Just because we can agree that is kinda odd, doesn't mean we have to get along :P. I've also been in verbally-violent discussions with other atheist about whether we should respects people's religion, or look down on them and try to convert them.

... Maybe I'm the problem.
EagleMan wrote:I called gnostic atheism silly because you're asserting a claim without sufficient evidence, which would presumably be what an atheist objects to in religion, which is where my point about specificity came in. If there was a god who could create suns, there would be a mechanism by which that is done, and our telescopes would see stars suddenly appearing in the sky, rather than by their normal method of formation. That detail about the god being able to create stars allows us to test that god by observing the creation of stars. Unless how the god creates stars happens to perfectly align with how we understand stars to be born, in which case you're just saying the laws of science are god - either way, it gives us three possibilities: we prove that god by seeing him form stars, or we disprove him by seeing no stars being formed by a god. Or we attribute that godly power as being possible under the purview of science.

Okay, so my example wasn't perfect either. The point is, what if I invent a god that doesn't do anything that can be observed or measured in any way? What if the sun god there only works so far away, the light from the new stars haven't reached us yet? Or a god that controls dark energy, a substance we cannot directly observer and don't know where came from. Or a god that like, lives at the core of the earth and have the power to do anything, but doesn't actually do so? The latter is much like the implied case of the christian god who, depending on who you ask, haven't performed any miracles since Jesus died. Can you disprove these? Is it easier to disprove these than that gods doesn't exist in general? My answer is yes, and no, respectively.

Blood Lord wrote:
Vegedus wrote:Ugh. My whole point is there doesn't have to be for it to be "proven". Just like I don't have to prove we aren't living in the matrix to assert that we aren't. Re-read the damn post, I've explained the logic thrice now.

No need to get testy there.

I read your post as testy and responded in kind, but perhaps I was wrong. It's just annoying to only have your central assertion questioned, when everything else is meant to back up that assertion. Like, logic is that if A implies B, and A is true, then B must be true. To me, it looks like you're attacking B, without saying anything about A or the implication between A and B, which in no way undermines the truth value of B. Feel free to dispute this, I could be wrong, I could be wrong about everything, but it's what it looks like to me.

So, formal logic, lets see if that gets us somewhere. I've only just learned it recently myself so this might only be confusing for you, but I'm trying it out as an experiment. My argument basically has the structure
Code: Select all
A -> B
, plus
Code: Select all
(X and Y or Z) -> A
. "->" means "implies", meaning that if the former is true, then the latter is true as well. Now, B is "strong atheism is true" or at the very least "strong atheism isn't silly". B is "in a scientific/useful sense of the word 'prove', every god have already been 'proven' non-existent". Now, I think it's trivial that this specific A implies B, so I haven't spent much text on it. Dispute this if you will. IF WE ASSUME god have been disprove, then strong atheism is true. Agree? We can't actually assume that A is true, but the link between A and B is important to establish. Now, what I've spent 90 % of this thread on is X, Y and Z. I've been trying to prove A. I'm not assuming it's true, I'm arguing it is. We could call X for "burden of proof is a valid concept" and Y as "burden of proof means: a negative proof (unicorns DOESN'T exist) is not needed if there's not sufficient positive proof to begin with, the negative statement is effectively proven". Z is everything else, miscellaneous arguments, whatever me and Eagleman is talking about, chaos. Let me put that in a more easily read form.

Code: Select all
Two statements.
A -> B
(X and Y or Z) -> A

B: Strong atheism is true/I'm right, ya'll are niggas
A: In a scientific/useful sense of the word 'prove', every god have already been 'proven' non-existent

X: Burden of proof is a valid concept
Y: Burden of proof means: A negative proof is not needed if there's not sufficient positive proof to begin with, the negative statement is effectively proven already
Z: Lots of stuff, hard to categories, ignore for now.

If you can spot the point in this chain that you disagree with, it'll be easier to continue this conversation. Perhaps you disagree that X and Y implies B? Or that X is true? For my money, Y is the stickler.
Image
Will make apocalypse themed fiction for food
User avatar
offline
 
Posts: 10237
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:46 pm
Location: Denmark, at world's end
Gender: Male

Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Q.U. » Wed May 29, 2013 7:51 am

@Veg
You're doing it wrong. Here's how it's done:

Definition 1: x is God-like if and only if x has as essential properties those and only those properties which are positive
Definition 2: A is an essence of x if and only if for every property B, x has B necessarily if and only if A entails B
Definition 3: x necessarily exists if and only if every essence of x is necessarily exemplified

Axiom 1: Any property entailed by—i.e., strictly implied by—a positive property is positive
Axiom 2: If a property is positive, then its negation is not positive
Axiom 3: The property of being God-like is positive
Axiom 4: If a property is positive, then it is necessarily positive
Axiom 5: Necessary existence is a positive property
Axiom 6: For any property P, if P is positive, then being necessarily P is positive


Theorem 1: If a property is positive, then it is consistent, i.e., possibly exemplified.
Corollary 1: The property of being God-like is consistent.
Theorem 2: If something is God-like, then the property of being God-like is an essence of that thing.
Theorem 3: Necessarily, the property of being God-like is exemplified.


Image


Check mate.
This post is intended for information only. Please do not reply to this message as responses cannot be read or acknowledged due to the stupidity of the user.
Moderator

User avatar
offline
 
Posts: 3284
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:41 pm
Location: Zerus
Gender: Male

Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Vegedus » Wed May 29, 2013 9:18 am

Posting on a forum of nerds, I guess I should have seen that coming, being out-nerded. I'll have to re-read that when I'm less sleep deprived... And google some of the less familiar notations.
Image
Will make apocalypse themed fiction for food
User avatar
offline
 
Posts: 10237
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:46 pm
Location: Denmark, at world's end
Gender: Male

Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Grey » Wed May 29, 2013 9:27 am

fuckin nerds
Image
I'm NORML and I VOTE
Soul Silver Friend Code: 0260-2900-0828
Suave Brit

User avatar
offline
 
Posts: 11158
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:08 pm
Gender: Male
Sexiness: Godlike

Re: Faith in humanity

Postby MERASMUS! » Wed May 29, 2013 9:34 am

You cannot kill what already has no life.
Owner of the Bombinomicon
User avatar
offline
 
Posts: 2056
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:31 pm
Location: An evil lair
Gender: Male

Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Blood Lord » Wed May 29, 2013 9:08 pm

Grey wrote:fuckin nerds
Moderator

User avatar
offline
 
Posts: 18995
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:21 pm
Location: Right behind you.
Gender: Male

Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Mir@k » Thu May 30, 2013 12:33 am

What is this numbers!??
YOU THInk this soiciety is what is it because of yOUR MATH???
HA HA
Fuck your numbers! Yes! This is no tiem for your frilly dresses and your tea parties you little girls
whats that your mom calls you to make dinner for daddy?
WLEL THEN YOU SHOULD GO OBEY YOUR GOD DAMN MOTHER
God Bless America
24 Karat
Snafu Gold Card Member!

User avatar
online
 
Posts: 1310
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:00 pm
Gender: Male

Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Vegedus » Thu May 30, 2013 2:03 am

Clearly, what has science ever done for us?
Image
Will make apocalypse themed fiction for food
User avatar
offline
 
Posts: 10237
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:46 pm
Location: Denmark, at world's end
Gender: Male

Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Exodis » Thu May 30, 2013 2:08 am

Image
Mir@k: Exodis is the little kid of the forum, compared to everyone else.
Grey: From now on i will call you eggy because i don't like x but ex sounds like eggs. i like eggs.
Yog: Exodis, your manner of speech and the way you conduct yourself is beginning to evolve to the point where I'm starting to like you.
Blood Lord: Yup, Randori is a very well respected night elf of the community. His valuable service to the site has brought great blessings to this people.
BeeAre: I'm totally gay for Randori.
Stuff: Exodis, you are learning. Mama is proud.

I will persevere, I will resist to hear, I will interfere.
Check out my story! Exodis - The Last Savior
The Universal Swordsman
User avatar
online
 
Posts: 2183
Joined: Sat May 01, 2010 11:47 pm
Location: City of Angels
Gender: Male

Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Wulfespinndel » Thu May 30, 2013 3:03 am

Mir@k wrote:God Bless America

- Hardiness & Valour
- Purity & Innocence
- Vigilance, Perseverance & Justice

Nope, we're fucked.
Reset. Recalibrate.
User avatar
offline
 
Posts: 1000
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:11 am
Gender: Female

Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Icha » Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:21 pm

Dunno man, the average american is probably more gullible than you think.
One time when I was high, I thought I was in an ambulance dying. Turns out I was just eating sherbert.
-stufflikehearts-
User avatar
offline
 
Posts: 4039
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 7:26 pm
Location: ???
Gender: None specified

Re: Faith in humanity

Postby nobody » Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:06 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-N5e1R4-G9I <I always remember this part whenever I see a god discussion.
Image
Nowhere man please listen.
User avatar
offline
 
Posts: 8106
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:49 am
Location: Nowhere land.
Gender: None specified

Re: Faith in humanity

Postby noxux » Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:13 pm

"The best thing about life is not knowing what will happen, what we do shows who we are" -иохчх
Pabst:"Aww, you're no fun Noxux.
A Fight in a Flash
I am a very tall midget
User avatar
offline
 
Posts: 299
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:02 pm
Location: Floating in outer space
Gender: Male

Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Mir@k » Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:51 pm

this is a good
24 Karat
Snafu Gold Card Member!

User avatar
online
 
Posts: 1310
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:00 pm
Gender: Male

Re: Faith in humanity

Postby Grey » Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:35 pm

it's not just a good.
it's a grrrrrrrreat.
Image
Image
I'm NORML and I VOTE
Soul Silver Friend Code: 0260-2900-0828
Suave Brit

User avatar
offline
 
Posts: 11158
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:08 pm
Gender: Male
Sexiness: Godlike

Previous

Return to BeeAre's Undesirables

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: BeeAre, Exodis, Google [Bot], Hiroko, Mir@k and 3 guests