Snow Diggity's views on Feminists and Feminism

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Snow Diggity's views on Feminists and Feminism

Postby Snow Diggity » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:27 am

Note: This thread was moved here by Warbear , from its original place in the therapy thread, I did not create this thread

Now, before I am taken the wrong way, allow to explain myself, Personally I truly hate turning one thread into an argument stemmed from personal drama, but I need to at the least get my say in before I'm made to look like a misogynist or a bigot. I'll Try to write this as short as possible to avoid deviating from my point.

First and foremost, yes I am an anti-feminist, that doesn't mean however, that I'm not pro equality, specifically /because/ I am against one specific group fighting for the same thing that many others are.

" Well if you're so PRO equality, why are you an anti-feminist? "

While it does have. or at the very least it HAD the right ideals at the start, having personally been there to witness its deviation from the path it started on, and watching it use tactics that utterly revolted me, I personally refuse to align myself with the movement.

"That Hot to Crazy scale image was sexist"

No, it wasn't typically speaking the more attractive someone is the more partners typically they will have, this also means there will be more people specifically in it to hit and quit it, which has effects on the other person a-lot of the time secondariilly, I NEVER said it only applied to females, it was being used in the context of that situation. So feel free to assume what you will if you want to but I never said it.

"Why are you an Anti Feminist then? whats your big deal with feminists?"

First of all its the fact that many of the problems they bring up either have easy solutions or don't really exist at ALL ?

Such as the good ol' wage gap and if you want more on that I've got plenty on stand-by.

Rape culture is in fact the most irritating thing I've ever even had to deal with because it's not the easiest topic to BRING up or argue about because the second you do bring it up, people come in with some kind of predisposition to what you're talking about already in mind. The treatment and the views on women who have been sexually abused? THATS fucked up, because I know too many that have been treated like soiled goods.

But the act in and of itself? "Teach men not to rape?" Rapists are fucking criminals, do you think someone with an agenda to go shoot up a school is going to obey gun laws? Then why on earth would you believe teaching an average law abiding male citizen not to do something a criminal would do makes a difference, teach women self defence so they have a chance to fight back for themselves.

Exactly how would THIS:

have gone had it been two boys and one girl? that would have been a VERY different case.

This girl right here? http://37.media.tumblr.com/a64389f2322cbccb7489161fd9da36bd/tumblr_muu276huJD1rq01f1o1_1280.jpg
Decided to call it rape after finding out she could be expelled from her college for doing it once it was posted on instagram

"Sexism, lack of Basic Human Rights"

I-I'm sorry, what? The term is so broad and so generalized at this point that it can be used for anything, are you referring to the sexualization of women in media for advertisement purposes?

Well I'm sorry but Average guys dont exactly fit this description do they?


If You wanna complain about sexism or impossible to obtain standards, go ahead, but abolish it completely, not halfway. The same people that will complain about the sexualization of women, and being objectified are the same people you either see alone or talking about wanting men as previously shown, and yet, men are the ones who are supposed to lower our standards, not the other way around. Which is funny considering that in a relationship where one person is above average and the other is average or below its often the male who has taken to getting off of his high horse.

Image

and before you say "Thats not a real feminist allow me to direct you to this : right here

As far as rights go, exactly what basic human rights have you been denied? The rights to have a baby aborted? by all means do so, but consider the WELL KNOWN fact that many women in black communities specifically look for guys to impregnate them so that they can live off the child support , something a feminist will never argue about, why would they? when it benefits them so profusely, and the laws regarding it are so skewed in a woman's favor. You have the right to put the child up for adoption, keep it, or abort it. the male has the option of either staying and raising the child, paying child support, either by means of a govt. forced job, or their own job's pay being cut immensely to support the mother, regardless of what that does to the father in question. Women who commit battery against their male spouses often have nothing done about it or are touted as "just being emotional, or defending themselves, and I know this because my father went to court against my mother for it, and i immediately after did research on it after he lost the case. Turns out most males wont even go to court for something like that.

So, the law in general favors females in cases of rape, domestic violence, sexism, parental custody and child support. So in reality, feminism isn't a culture about fixing the unfair treatment of women, such as the case is in may other countries and for the most part Socially , here and bringing the standard at which they are held up. It's devolving into senseless one sided arguments , and the demonization of males to bring them down to the level at which they speak of being at.

I dont like the way the world is, its fucked up, and it always has been, I was once even a part of the feminist movement actively for a short while, but what it tried to appear to be and what it was are two very different things.

People that make sense:
_________________________________________________________________________
http://anti-feminism-pro-equality.tumblr.com/antifeminism

http://logicd.tumblr.com/
_________________________________________________________________________

Also note: I'm not saying any of you would say this or do these things, I am only responding to common statements or actions tossed at me by either feminists or pro feminist people I have encountered.

Questions or concerns? Feel free to PM me about it because I don't want to junk this thread up anymore than i've already had to to make my voice heard.

Mod Edit: This was posted in the Therapy Thread but I feel it deserves its own thread. -Warbear
Last edited by Snow Diggity on Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Snow Diggity's views on Feminists and Feminism

Postby Rough Giraffe » Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:40 pm

Last time I got into a conversation with a feminist about rape culture I got called a peice of shit because she thought I was suggesting that rapes involving alcohol aren't real rapes. :\
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Re: Snow Diggity's views on Feminists and Feminism

Postby Warbear » Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:43 pm

It sure is a good thing that you weren't.
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Re: Snow Diggity's views on Feminists and Feminism

Postby Rough Giraffe » Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:44 pm

Yeah, I mean I thought I had been pretty clear, too. I clearly called them rapes and everything.
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Re: Snow Diggity's views on Feminists and Feminism

Postby Warbear » Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:52 pm

Anything that isn't sober consent from both parties all the way through is rape.
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Re: Snow Diggity's views on Feminists and Feminism

Postby Rough Giraffe » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:03 pm

Exactly. I even said that.

ED: Well, maybe not exactly that, but it wasn't as if I was fucking victim blaming or anything.
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Re: Snow Diggity's views on Feminists and Feminism

Postby Snow Diggity » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:15 pm

Thats why whenever you go out to drink, it would serve anyone, male or female very well to go with at least one or two other friends, as corny and it sounds it is in the best interest of both males and females, even I was taught that.

Girls it serves best so that at the least you have friends there, that keep people from taking advantage of you as easilly

Guys it serves best so that you DON'T wind up in that position where if she wakes up and realizes she didn't want to sleep with you you don't have to see court.


etc etc.

still, that's a slippery slope you tread on at all.
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Re: Snow Diggity's views on Feminists and Feminism

Postby Warbear » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:21 pm

Don't...say that the only reason you shouldn't do it is because you could end up in court. You shouldn't do it because it's a shitty thing to do.
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Re: Snow Diggity's views on Feminists and Feminism

Postby Snow Diggity » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:30 pm

Warbear wrote:Don't...say that the only reason you shouldn't do it is because you could end up in court. You shouldn't do it because it's a shitty thing to do.
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Whats funny is that I never said that, I said that you shouldn't get drunk and try to get with a girl because you never know WHAT kind of situation you could end up in, and that you may not be in the right state of mind either.If you arent able to think clearly you should steer clear of it in general, not just avoid raping because you can go to court

Me personally, I've only ever been to a bar what, once in my life overseas ?
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Re: Snow Diggity's views on Feminists and Feminism

Postby Warbear » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:31 pm

Snow Diggity wrote:Guys it serves best so that you DON'T wind up in that position where if she wakes up and realizes she didn't want to sleep with you you don't have to see court.

Are you okay?
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Re: Snow Diggity's views on Feminists and Feminism

Postby Tuor » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:33 pm

I think he's talking about her regretting it after the fact and then claiming rape
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Re: Snow Diggity's views on Feminists and Feminism

Postby Snow Diggity » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:39 pm

Tuor wrote:I think he's talking about her regretting it after the fact and then claiming rape


more or less yes, but as I said its a slippery slope.

what happens when the woman wakes up and remembers she's married and she was only out to have fun and got more than she bargained for? What happens when someone films it and the person in question can get fired or expelled?

There are too many cases and too many reasons to blanket it completely under the label of rape, and I personally would love it if investigators were to individually analyse each case but sadly thats not what happens too often
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Re: Snow Diggity's views on Feminists and Feminism

Postby Warbear » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:42 pm

That's probably why you don't have sex with an obviously intoxicated woman.
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Re: Snow Diggity's views on Feminists and Feminism

Postby Snow Diggity » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:54 pm

What if the guy is intoxicated, is my question, so you are both drunk and have sex, alcohol loosens inhibitions, so it would serve the guy well to have a freind there to keep them from doing something risky like trying something like that.

But, im not the god of social etiquette I'm just a guy who lives his life one specific way, doesn't mean its the right way or the only way
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Re: Snow Diggity's views on Feminists and Feminism

Postby Krest » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:58 pm

The reason for the bastardization of feminism is negative propaganda. In other words, hate speech. If not for the verbal attacks against males, feminism would've been over by now. Instead, it's an age old movement doing anything to retain a sense of validity despite no longer being needed. >.>
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Re: Snow Diggity's views on Feminists and Feminism

Postby Snow Diggity » Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:04 pm

You had me Krest, and you lost me, I beleive in social justice, and in Egalitarianism, I do not, however believe that things are hunky dory the way they are now, granted in western civilizations women have gained major headway, but it isn't enough, not just them, what about trans gendered, gay, bi and lesbian people ? Things arent where they need to be at present, but with time and work they CAN get to that point, hell, even RACISM is still an issue, look at the adversity interracial relationships face.
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Re: Snow Diggity's views on Feminists and Feminism

Postby Rough Giraffe » Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:05 pm

Snow Diggity wrote:What if the guy is intoxicated, is my question, so you are both drunk and have sex, alcohol loosens inhibitions, so it would serve the guy well to have a freind there to keep them from doing something risky like trying something like that.

There's also something to be said about a woman who, while sober, picks out some hot guy in a bar who looks drunk and seduces him. If she has sex with him while he's drunk and she's sober, it falls under the definition of rape, but you'll never hear of a man accusing a woman of rape under that circumstance. Everyone will blame him, regardless of the woman's actions.

Same thing if a woman were to go to a bar with every intention of having sex with someone that night; if she gets drunk and then has sex, whoever she had sex with would be guilty of rape according to the definition.
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Re: Snow Diggity's views on Feminists and Feminism

Postby Snow Diggity » Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:15 pm

Hell, the people at my school always talk about the parties they go to they just get the girls drunk and fuck em, The girls know that once they get there, the guys are going to try to get in their pants, and proceed knowing full well what is going to happen, but if its called out as being rape the guys would be the ones facing a court date.

The laws need to be stricter about things like this, whats really sad about rape is that, any woman can have sex, decide she didnt want it later (I do however beleive there is a limited amount of time in certain cases?) and call it rape, therefore ruining the mans reputation and possibly costing him his job and social standing

Whats worse is that when women do this to save themselves humiliation and or consequence they lessen the concern for those who have truly been sexually abused. To the point which people begin to assume all of them are crying wolf to save themselves, and its really sad for the ones who truly need, and deserve help.
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Re: Snow Diggity's views on Feminists and Feminism

Postby Q.U. » Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:25 pm

Warbear wrote:That's probably why you don't have sex with an obviously intoxicated woman.

Nor should a woman have sex with an obviously intoxicated man. Let's not be sexist here.

Rough Giraffe wrote:Same thing if a woman were to go to a bar with every intention of having sex with someone that night; if she gets drunk and then has sex, whoever she had sex with would be guilty of rape according to the definition.

If we'd just subscribe ourselves to the "unfortunate reality" and "taking responsibility for oneself" and we'd be peachy. It's not illegal for a guy, or a girl to get pissed at a party with a load of horny strangers and get fucked over in some way as a result. And while in many cases the perpetrator/s is/are the one shouldering the blame for the act, the victim shoulders the responsibility of keeping themselves safe from such things. Taking risks is just that, taking risks. And taking stupid risks is your own conscious choice. If you got drunk on your own accord, and acted out on your own primal instincts, whether you're male or female you only have yourself to blame. If you go to a party and get molested/abused after passing out from alcochol then the person who molested you deserves a court case, and you deserve a kick in the ass to remind you not to do that shit again. And this is not victim blaming, this is fucking common sense people. Someone who has the slightest bit of imagination and concern for their own wellbeing would think twice before getting themselves in a high-risk situation like that. You either party among people you trust, or you have people you trust look after you, or you keep yourself from losing yourself to whatever substances you choose to stuff your sorry ass with. That's all there is to it.
And no, even if you are passed out half naked on the street at night it's not okay for you to get raped, and whoever does something like that deserves life in prison. But you didn't help your chances there either, so punish the criminal and bow your head in shame instead of crying like a wounded kitten. Just because it wasn't your fault, doesn't mean that you shouldn't have seen it coming. Again, vast majority of the cases you guys are discussing would be a non-issue if adults and teens acted responsibly and with common sense and forethought. But of course, that's way too much to ask.
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Re: Snow Diggity's views on Feminists and Feminism

Postby Whatis6times9 » Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:07 pm

Snow Diggity wrote:What if the guy is intoxicated, is my question, so you are both drunk and have sex, alcohol loosens inhibitions, so it would serve the guy well to have a freind there to keep them from doing something risky like trying something like that.

Generally those cases don't even go to trial because it's such he said/she said that most DAs will never bring charges because it's insanely hard to win.
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Re: Snow Diggity's views on Feminists and Feminism

Postby Tuor » Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:32 pm

Snow Diggity wrote:But the act in and of itself? "Teach men not to rape?" Rapists are fucking criminals, do you think someone with an agenda to go shoot up a school is going to obey gun laws? Then why on earth would you believe teaching an average law abiding male citizen not to do something a criminal would do makes a difference, teach women self defence so they have a chance to fight back for themselves.


The comparison doesn't really hold water.
Part of the issue with rape is that it is normalized in a lot of ways and so people may not really see it as problem. Raising awareness about it, and problematic issues surrounding it, is important so people realize that what they're doing is not ok. Most rapes are committed by regular guys, not scary-dark-alley-evil-monster-men-in-ski-masks. You're not liable to accidentally (because you've lived in a culture where problematic issues surrounding it are normalized) go shoot up a school. Self-defence is important, sure, but it should only be a last resort and it shouldn't have to be something that people have to generally be worried about, and the situations in which it's even applicable aren't as prevalent as you want to think.

Also, your apparent assertion that teaching people not to rape is futile is patently false. In 2010 a campaign was launched in several Canadian cities. It aimed its message, not at potential rape victims, but at potential rapists. It took the radical step of educating potential rapists about what rape actually is. It recognized the role that alcohol commonly plays in rape, and it educates potential rapists that having sex with someone who doesn’t consent, or who is too drunk to consent, or who is passed out and therefore unable to consent, is rape. Guess what happened? The number of reported sexual assaults in my city alone (Vancouver) fell by 10 per cent in one year. So clearly it does "make a difference"
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Re: Snow Diggity's views on Feminists and Feminism

Postby Princess » Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:40 pm

"That Hot to Crazy scale image was sexist"

This is the only thing I'm replying to, because youre really not worth it. It's not sexist, you're right. Actually, it's bullshit and ableism.
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Re: Snow Diggity's views on Feminists and Feminism

Postby Snow Diggity » Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:05 pm

Tuor wrote:Part of the issue with rape is that it is normalized in a lot of ways and so people may not really see it as problem.

Raising awareness about it, and problematic issues surrounding it, is important so people realize that what they're doing is not ok.

Self-defence is important, sure, but it should only be a last resort and it shouldn't have to be something that people have to generally be worried about, and the situations in which it's even applicable aren't as prevalent as you want to think.


Yes ? And No ? I can see what you mean, in that people have become desensitized to it and i think thats a shame as I stated in the post above QU's, that it can be shrugged off, but people in general society hasn't devolved to the point of accepting rape and being okay with it happening to people male or female.

Mate, anyone who does something like this is conciously aware of the fact that they are forcing something on someone who does not want it. Anyone with the knowledge that they will go to jail who proceed to /do/ so are willingly, and KNOWINGLY, commiting a crime and either A. have a mental problem or B. do not care. These are the people on which I focus because these people are the ones, aside from those who get women drunk, who use date rape drugs, or violently FORCE themselves on the woman, they know what they are doing, even if its not about right and wrong, they know that they could go to jail and if they don't, then they weren't raised right

To answer your final statement on the Vancouver campaign, I know about that, and the thing is, as good as it was at preventing potential rape , alot of reported rapes revolve around the use of alchohol and the lack of real consent, therefore, what it did was raise awareness about the fact that legally speaking getting a women drunk with intent to have sex with her is illegal and is considered rape. So in reality they educated alot of people which then caused them not to try it, reducing the number of reported rapes, its a nice step, but its not really a solution to those who actively commit rape knowing what they are doing.
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Re: Snow Diggity's views on Feminists and Feminism

Postby Tuor » Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:17 pm

Snow Diggity wrote:
Tuor wrote:Part of the issue with rape is that it is normalized in a lot of ways and so people may not really see it as problem.

Raising awareness about it, and problematic issues surrounding it, is important so people realize that what they're doing is not ok.

Self-defence is important, sure, but it should only be a last resort and it shouldn't have to be something that people have to generally be worried about, and the situations in which it's even applicable aren't as prevalent as you want to think.


Yes ? And No ? I can see what you mean, in that people have become desensitized to it and i think thats a shame as I stated in the post above QU's, that it can be shrugged off, but people in general society hasn't devolved to the point of accepting rape and being okay with it happening to people male or female.

More like it hasn't fully evolved past it. What do you think rape culture is exactly?

Mate, anyone who does something like this is conciously aware of the fact that they are forcing something on someone who does not want it.

False

Anyone with the knowledge that they will go to jail who proceed to /do/ so are willingly, and KNOWINGLY, commiting a crime and either A. have a mental problem or B. do not care. These are the people on which I focus because these people are the ones, aside from those who get women drunk, who use date rape drugs, or violently FORCE themselves on the woman, they know what they are doing, even if its not about right and wrong, they know that they could go to jail and if they don't, then they weren't raised right

They are the minority

To answer your final statement on the Vancouver campaign, I know about that, and the thing is, as good as it was at preventing potential rape , alot of reported rapes revolve around the use of alchohol and the lack of real consent, therefore, what it did was raise awareness about the fact that legally speaking getting a women drunk with intent to have sex with her is illegal and is considered rape. So in reality they educated alot of people which then caused them not to try it, reducing the number of reported rapes, its a nice step, but its not really a solution to those who actively commit rape knowing what they are doing.

Again, the people you're talking about are a minority
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Re: Snow Diggity's views on Feminists and Feminism

Postby Snow Diggity » Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:41 pm

Tuor wrote:
False

Im referring to those who specifically go out to commit the act of rape, they may not recognize its wrong, but majority of them in fact DO know that they are committing a crime.

They are the minority

then they weren't raised right (Be it parent or community wise)

To answer your final statement on the Vancouver campaign, I know about that, and the thing is, as good as it was at preventing potential rape , alot of reported rapes revolve around the use of alchohol and the lack of real consent, therefore, what it did was raise awareness about the fact that legally speaking getting a women drunk with intent to have sex with her is illegal and is considered rape. So in reality they educated alot of people which then caused them not to try it, reducing the number of reported rapes, its a nice step, but its not really a solution to those who actively commit rape knowing what they are doing.

Again, the people you're talking about are a minority
[/quote]

Exactly,most of the ten percent
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