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Postby Lengeta » Thu Jan 16, 2003 10:28 pm

hmm... I think we (not me-you, everyone overall) have a big difference in opinions. Time for some research.
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Postby maxx_unlimited » Thu Jan 16, 2003 10:34 pm

Image

The black outlines are 100% mine, they have none of the original in them, I just "Traced" the other images.
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Postby Wildcard » Thu Jan 16, 2003 10:38 pm

Not if its for educational purposes. Despite popular belief thats the ONLY ONLY ONLY excuse for copying another persons work is education. Even if you don't make money off of it if you can't viably claim it as education it is a violation of the Unites States copyright laws and is therefore legally illegal.
[22:38] <DJ_Cyni-Cole> you're tell me, a writer, that books are lame?
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Postby maxx_unlimited » Thu Jan 16, 2003 10:43 pm

the out lines are a school project... :P

the other one is to, yeah, thats it!
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Postby Wildcard » Thu Jan 16, 2003 10:50 pm

The outlines would be illegal cause they're substantially similar.

And Layne I sat through a 3 credit hour class on Copyright laws last semester. I think I'm pretty good to go on what is and isn't a copyright violation. I can double check in the book (the laws aren't really all that complicated)...but pretty much ANY copy of another author's work is a copyright violation unless its for educational purposes. It may just happen that if you are not making money off of it or affecting the gross profit of the owner of said copyright they lack the necessary power for "litigation"
[22:38] <DJ_Cyni-Cole> you're tell me, a writer, that books are lame?
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Postby Lengeta » Thu Jan 16, 2003 11:02 pm

What about this "fair use"? There are alot of ppl that copy. For instance, what about sprite comic authors. And educaitonal, what if I DO use if for practice, but then, post it on the saying, "just practicing, here what it looks like." Also, can you go farther if you give creadit to the origanal author?
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Postby Wildcard » Thu Jan 16, 2003 11:10 pm

"Fair Use" as many sprite Authors bring up IS a real copy right law. However for something to be Fair Use it a.) has to be part of the public domain (all non copyrighted images and or images so famous that it has been proclaimed as public domain (like the Mona Lisa for example), and or Educational use of said images. Sprite comics piss me off when they claim Fair Use protects them cause it doesn't protect a god damned sprite ever created since sprites are too new to be public domain. However, game companies usually will not form litigation agains use of their sprites since they view them as insignifigant as far as yearly returns on said images goes.

You CAN say you're just practicing...but for such a medium to truly be considered educational you cannot make money on it, display it in any non educational enviroment, or pull any noticable amount of money traffic from the owner of said copyright (Say if I made a picture of mickey mouse having sex with a woman and Disney's sales went down because of it...which is hypothetical).

Giving credit to the author does NOTHING. Aboslutely nothing. Now if you WRITE the author and get a legally signed document (notarized perferably) of them saying you can use their document then you're good to go. Most author/creator's require you to give them credit on the document as well which is why you SEE people giving them credit. But I assure you they have legally signed documents to back up they had permission to use the images before accrediting it to the author.
[22:38] <DJ_Cyni-Cole> you're tell me, a writer, that books are lame?
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Postby Lengeta » Thu Jan 16, 2003 11:15 pm

so... what about fan art. Like "here is a pic I drew of Mickey Mouse, (C) Disney or whoever", that's ILLEGAL??
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Postby Wildcard » Thu Jan 16, 2003 11:23 pm

Should the company owning the copyright feel so...well yes. Squaresoft is like THE fan fiction hitler. They've shut down over 100 Final Fantasy fan fiction and fan art sites with copyright legalities. There's a difference between whats illegal and whats litigationable though. No judge on earth is going to hear out a case of Disney suing a 3 year old cause he drew Mickey mouse. However, if Disney noticed a loss of sales on Mickey Mouse paraphanalia and someone out there was running a site of Mickey Mouse dressed like hitler and killing Jews as a joke, they'd sue the person until they were broke because they would have the fact that there's a.) substantial similarity and b.) said website has effected the flow of funding within regard to the copyright holder.

I'm not positive but Mickey Mouse may or may not have been introduced into "public domain" a while ago since Disney copyrighted before 1972 (when copyright laws changed dramatically). Chances are you drawing a picture of Mickey Mouse is a violation of copyright law...however they have no grounds for litigation until you've made or stolen a noticable amount of property away from the owner of said copyright.
[22:38] <DJ_Cyni-Cole> you're tell me, a writer, that books are lame?
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Postby Lengeta » Thu Jan 16, 2003 11:27 pm

ok ok, what if I DID illeagaly copy someones stuff, and they wanted to sue me or whatever. BEFOR they sue me, would you have a chance to take it down?
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Postby Kris » Thu Jan 16, 2003 11:29 pm

In a perfect world where the people are nice, they might ask you (or threaten you, however you wanna look at it) to take it down, or they'll shut you down.
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Postby Wildcard » Thu Jan 16, 2003 11:31 pm

Even if you took it down I'm sure they'd have full documentation of its existance and linkage to you. Especially if it was a big company and they were taking you to trial for litigation. So the answer would be no...no you wouldn't.

Speaking of all this new copyright laws say that any work is copyrighted at the point of creation. However a registered copyright will have better chances of passing litigation and receiving higher payment for it. So I'm registering all of the TCS work after its first birthday. Then I can all be like "Hey biatch. This shit is registered so don't even THINK of jackin it boi!" in the credits.
[22:38] <DJ_Cyni-Cole> you're tell me, a writer, that books are lame?
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Postby Nix » Thu Jan 16, 2003 11:33 pm

Keep in mind you're talking about American Copyright laws. North of the Border things are a little different.

Most of what you have said applies here as well though, MOST.
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Postby Lengeta » Thu Jan 16, 2003 11:33 pm

I don't like that at all. I think legally you should have some time to take stuff down, unless you were making money or such off it, then they would be intitled to the money i suppose. meh
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Postby Wildcard » Thu Jan 16, 2003 11:39 pm

They wouldn't do anything unless you were making money off of it or driving business from them. Trust me.

And nix brings a good point. Although the US has agreements with most countries that the US Copyright laws apply to US copyright laws and are treated thus in all agreed countried (I.e. in England if you break an AMERICAN copyright that isn;t necessarily an English copyright then England has basically agreed to let America form litigation against them...KINDA). Its alot cloudier when it hits the international level though.
[22:38] <DJ_Cyni-Cole> you're tell me, a writer, that books are lame?
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Postby Nix » Thu Jan 16, 2003 11:40 pm

99% of the time the only thing the court will do in a case of "Some guy has fan art up and we don't like it" is to issue an injunction. Thats basically a legal order to take it down, otherwise you will be punished via fine or jail time.
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Postby Lengeta » Thu Jan 16, 2003 11:43 pm

Yeah yeah, I just think that sometime I could do something, not really knowing someone has something copywrighted, and they would sue me out of the blue... and I didn't even know about it. THAT would suck.
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Postby Wildcard » Thu Jan 16, 2003 11:51 pm

Pretty much any case taken to court ends up with a fine unless they take down the work. Thats like the bear minimum and is what Squaresoft has done to most sites. But there's been a few they've taken money from.

No one is ever gonna sue you Layne. I mean hell look at all the famous Figures Penny Arcade has shown and they haven't reported any litigations (most companies probably view their work as free advertising truth be known). Its still "illegal" by definition but nothing is ever gonna happen. Its like downloading mp3s.
[22:38] <DJ_Cyni-Cole> you're tell me, a writer, that books are lame?
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Postby HaloGray » Thu Jan 16, 2003 11:53 pm

Most companies don't care about fan anything provided you're not making any money on it.

Fair Use has a lot of wiggle room... MAD magazine is king of fair use.

Take the hot movie... change a few names and draw stuff that's similar... but not exact. Provided it's your own art (unlike sprites) and the names are not exact... you can use it. So long as it's obviously satire.

Weird Al gets away with a few songs there too... only he usually asks before he spoofs anything just to avoid a lot of court cases.

Coolio took his ass to court over Omish Paradise and lost, when the same basic music and rhythms were used... PARODY has a lot to do with fair use as well.
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Postby Lengeta » Thu Jan 16, 2003 11:53 pm

I don't think I'd ever get sued, no no, but the idea of that being able to happens just sucks.
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Postby Nix » Thu Jan 16, 2003 11:55 pm

It's virtually impossible to get a cash settlement through court unless some kind of damage was done to the company image, or you cost them money in lost sales or something. Other than that, you really only need to worry about fines if you've been caught doing this before and told to stop, or if you've refused to comply with a court order (injunction) to stop.
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Postby Wildcard » Fri Jan 17, 2003 12:01 am

Yeah parodies are a section I never hit too hard cause its also a gray area. None of the laws are THAT solid truth be known. Most of copyright law exist on the basis of "substantial similarity" and "Striking similarity". So I mean if you get some idiot judge he may be like "Well I don't see how these pieces even RESEMBLE each other" when to another judge who is married to an artist he could rip apart alot of people.

But Sprites are NOT covered by fair use for anyone reading. I dunno WHY no one has ever been sued over this...probably cause no one is sure who OWNS the copyright to the sprite, the creator or the one paying him (there would have to be some documentation on licensing and such for Sega to say they owned the Sonic sprite and not just the sonic image). That probably has alot to do with it and most comics either don't impact or glorify the companies who created the sprites. I know Brian Clevinger has been turned into Square America in hopes that they'd shut hiw site down along with other Fan Art sites, but no news has ever come of it so if they did view his site they must have liked it.
[22:38] <DJ_Cyni-Cole> you're tell me, a writer, that books are lame?
Jesus fuels with 89 Octane and so do I. Eat it, heritics. -Halo
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Postby HaloGray » Fri Jan 17, 2003 12:11 am

8 bit theater renewed my interest in classic FF's... if it were not for that site I would have never spent money on the revamps... if Square were smart they'd force him to advertise something of theirs in his news posts 3 or 4 times a year.... I know reading his posts was a key factor in me buying Shinobi. Which is an excellent game... all of you must buy it.

He's got 5000 hard core video gamers coming into his site looking at what he has to say every day.... what company would want to piss that many people off when they can advertise directly to fanboys?
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Postby maxx_unlimited » Fri Jan 17, 2003 12:17 am

How about getting out of the exciting world of laws, and back to any comments on my skin :P

No, the outlines REALLY are for a school project.
Last edited by maxx_unlimited on Fri Jan 17, 2003 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Wildcard » Fri Jan 17, 2003 12:17 am

Yeah it would be pretty smart on their part to coerce him into advertising.
[22:38] <DJ_Cyni-Cole> you're tell me, a writer, that books are lame?
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