Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby BobSagat » Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:30 am

DaCrum wrote:Did we have crowds crying 2 days after JFK though?

Yes, we did.

There was also Princess Diana. And Michael Jackson. And plenty of other rich and famous dead people.

You fucking ignorant wannabe smartass. Stop acting as if you know shit when you obviously don't.

Again, these people who are crying might have been threatened to cry for the camera, but I was fucking completely serious when I said that these people have been brainwashed. There are only like three channels on TV - all government run, of course - constantly spouting propaganda. There is also a radio that is nailed into the wall of every home and cannot be turned off or have its volume adjusted. When the radio comes on, the people listen because ignoring it is not only illegal it's disrespectful to their Great Leader.

It's more than just laws that keep the people in line, it's the fact that the North Korean people, nearly all of them, really do worship a five foot three inch batshit insane freak like Kim Jong-il.

I won't say North Korea hasn't ever had any cases with rebellion or upheaval, but they're usually very small and always put down very quickly. If you ever wanted to imagine what it would be like if the psycho cult in Jonestown ever owned a country, North Korea would be it.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby DaCrum » Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:44 am

You make them sound like they all believe that. You're just as ignorant as I am.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby Grey » Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:00 am

north koreans believe their country is at active war with the US

these people are brainwashed, crum, this is actually happening
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby Whatis6times9 » Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:59 am

It is a real life case of 1984. The Gov't has made the people dependent upon them for everything, there is almost no access to outside information on the world, rebellion and dissension is quickly put down, every problem is blamed on a scapegoat real or imagined. Every psychological technique for a cult of personality is used.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby BobSagat » Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:38 pm

DaCrum wrote:You make them sound like they all believe that. You're just as ignorant as I am.


First of all, your reading comprehension is awful.

I won't say North Korea hasn't ever had any cases with rebellion or upheaval, but they're usually very small and always put down very quickly


Second, THEY PRETTY MUCH ALL FUCKING LOVE KIM JONG IL BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN SERIOUSLY BRAINWASHED YOU DUMB FUCK.

ANYONE WHO DOESN'T FUCKING BELIEVE IT IS FUCKING KILLED/PUT INTO LABOR CAMPS/TAKEN AND SERIOUSLY FUCKING BRAINWASHED. WHEN EVERYONE ELSE IS BRAINWASHED ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO JUST FAKE IT.

YOU HAVE NO FUCKING IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. NORTH KOREA IS A FUCKING NIGHTMARE COUNTRY.

YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT NORTH KOREA. I CAN TELL. ANYONE WHO FUCKING KNOWS ANYTHING CAN TELL. JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby DaCrum » Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:38 pm

Bob, you really are remarkably stupid. The sheer fact that there is a sizable group of defectors that basically have confirmed my suspicious of "We're not brainwashed, we just really don't want to do anything that'd lead to us dying".
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby DaCrum » Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:43 pm

And the reason I'm not really debating with you, or pulling up the defector interviews I read or anything is because you're acting like a child Bob and I really don't care to waste my time with man-children.

I cannot in any number believe that a population, including intelligent people, can be brainwashed into believing the hogwash that the Kim regime is. Defector interviews I have read have supported that. They aren't brainwashed, they're held hostage.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby BobSagat » Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:20 pm

Was this ever supposed to be a debate? As far as I can tell, it's just me calling you out for being such a dipshit. This is really just a matter of you having no fucking clue what you're talking about, Googling some shit after I yelled at you and then coming back trying to take the high road "oh, I just don't have the time to argue with you".

You are stupid. Accept that.

History does not support your retarded belief that intelligent people are immune to being brainwashed.

Look at Nazi Germany, Communist China, Imperialist Japan, USA during the Red Scare, etc. There are always the exception to the rule, not everyone is going to completely fall for it, but smarter people than you (which is a lot of fucking people) have been brainwashed into buying into the bullshit.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby DaCrum » Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:12 am

There's a difference between brainwashing, and just sticking with the status quo. You're just too stupid and stubborn to even bother arguing with. People GO WITH THE FLOW. It's what EVERYONE does. They may KNOW something is morally wrong, but unless they feel passionate enough they will stick to the status quo. People aren't brainwashed. They're lazy. The sheer fucking fact that you aren't nearly close to what anyone would consider to be open-minded is fact enough to prove that you're just like everyone else. A lazy asshole who goes with the flow. You just like to yell because you are mentally intimidating apparently.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby Sentios » Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:21 am

DaCrum wrote:Defector interviews I have read have supported that. They aren't brainwashed, they're held hostage.


Individuals who would defect are clearly not the average citizens or the the entire nation would have defected already (read revolution). Never mind who is holding them hostage if no significant number of them actually believes the divine leader spiel?
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby DaCrum » Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:02 pm

They don't have weapons. The most passionate will defect and leave the nation, the rest will stick with it, and like I said, stay with the status quo. The interviews with the defectors were basically "No one liked the situation, I just had the urge to leave and they didn't. People faked it a bit for Kim Il-sung and more people believed the divine leader spiel for him, people didn't like Jong-il nearly close to as much as Il-sung, and guarantees that a majority don't believe in the cult, the majority just really want to survive."

The average citizen would not revolt in the conditions they are given. The population is repressed enough that revolt isn't very possible. They're starved, weaponless, have no idea what's going on in the nation let alone outside of the nation. They are very thoroughly repressed.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby spazmonkey » Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:12 am

The majority of North Koreans have grown up in an atmosphere in which the adults raising them would be killed if the children were taught the government was bad. There is obviously no way to accurately measure how many people believe the propaganda and how many fake belief to avoid rape and murder, but I find it hard to assume there is not a significant percentage of North Koreans that are true believers.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby spazmonkey » Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:15 am

Also, anyone who disagrees with me is teh uberretard nubzor.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby DaCrum » Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:36 am

I can agree with that Spaz.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby Jay » Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:38 pm

I'm sure if Kim Jong-un did a census right now, it'd say 100% believed in his father.

And that's all that matters, practically speaking. Speculating what people actually feel is useless. However, do consider how many of them are old enough to remember a Korea before North Korea, and how much easier it is to control a population in a small area vs. say, the USSR or China.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby DaCrum » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:44 am

All it takes though, is one militaryhead to get greedy to destabilize it. Who knows, maybe we'll see a free North Korea in our lifetimes.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby EagleMan » Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:11 am

I doubt the military part.

The system of influence seems to be that the top military brass controls the leader while a cult of personality is built around the leader.

So if a general got greedy, he would have no public support and no support from the other generals, meaning he's dead on arrival.

The only possible problem that can arise in this system of balance it seems, is if the leader is inherently unstable himself, and not merely having the illusion of craziness as Kim Jong Il did, which is just a show to keep us on edge.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby BobSagat » Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:56 pm

DaCrum wrote:All it takes though, is one militaryhead to get greedy to destabilize it. Who knows, maybe we'll see a free North Korea in our lifetimes.


I wouldn't keep calling you a dumbass if you didn't keep making stupid uninformed statements like this one.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby DaCrum » Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:56 pm

Ignoring the dumbass...

EagleMan wrote:I doubt the military part.

The system of influence seems to be that the top military brass controls the leader while a cult of personality is built around the leader.

So if a general got greedy, he would have no public support and no support from the other generals, meaning he's dead on arrival.

The only possible problem that can arise in this system of balance it seems, is if the leader is inherently unstable himself, and not merely having the illusion of craziness as Kim Jong Il did, which is just a show to keep us on edge.



@What I imagine is if one general were to take his little detachment of soldiers and try to grab power, the majority who are just trying to survive North Korea would take advantage of that, either taking the ensuing chaos to flee south, or taking advantage to try and revolt. It's hard to say. We really have no definitive info on what's going on in there tbh.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby EagleMan » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:31 pm

That still doesn't make sense to me. Why would his soldiers (even imagining that generals each get their own little personal army rather than merely overseeing everything) be loyal to him and not the leader? Most of them certainly wouldn't go to the south. And in your scenario the general has no real motivation.

If it's a matter of greed, stealing away with a contingent of infantry is not smart as he's going to get obliterated by the rest of the military. If it's a matter of greed for fleeing south.. well he can do that anytime on his own and make bank (South Korea has a law that benefits any defectors with valuable intelligence, and a general would be invaluable). That bit might be in this thread but I forget which information I got from where.

North Korea seems unlikely to destabilize from within. It had its chance with Kim's death but it appears to have very smoothly transitioned through it which only stands as a testament to its internal stability.

I'd say famine from poor harvests could be a problem but the U.S. is already feeding them just so they remain stable and don't start a war out of desperation.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby Grey » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:52 pm

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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby DaCrum » Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:30 am

EagleMan wrote:That still doesn't make sense to me. Why would his soldiers (even imagining that generals each get their own little personal army rather than merely overseeing everything) be loyal to him and not the leader? Most of them certainly wouldn't go to the south. And in your scenario the general has no real motivation.

If it's a matter of greed, stealing away with a contingent of infantry is not smart as he's going to get obliterated by the rest of the military. If it's a matter of greed for fleeing south.. well he can do that anytime on his own and make bank (South Korea has a law that benefits any defectors with valuable intelligence, and a general would be invaluable). That bit might be in this thread but I forget which information I got from where.

North Korea seems unlikely to destabilize from within. It had its chance with Kim's death but it appears to have very smoothly transitioned through it which only stands as a testament to its internal stability.

I'd say famine from poor harvests could be a problem but the U.S. is already feeding them just so they remain stable and don't start a war out of desperation.



Honestly? I think our best plan of action is gain some serious leverage with China, warn SK and... Well. Cut the aid. No more food for them. People will grow desperate. NK would maybe even attack SK in response. But would full blown war be any worse than this awkward stalemate?
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby EagleMan » Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:02 am

..Are you serious?

Massive death and a new recession is better than a stalemate where nothing is actually happening?

I have to assume you're trolling or inebriated because this perplexes me coming from you.

At any rate, real change in North Korea can only come through China, and China will change things up when they see it as outliving their usefulness. However, imagine a unified Korea - now China envisions that the U.S. can have troops stationed on their border: North Korea serves as a buffer zone.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby BobSagat » Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:30 am

I wouldn't keep calling DaCrum a dumbass if he didn't keep making stupid uninformed statements like that one.
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Re: Immortal Leader Kim Jong Il Sheds Mortal Coil

Postby DaCrum » Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:19 pm

EagleMan wrote:At any rate, real change in North Korea can only come through China, and China will change things up when they see it as outliving their usefulness. However, imagine a unified Korea - now China envisions that the U.S. can have troops stationed on their border: North Korea serves as a buffer zone.

That makes sense. Like I said, we'd need some economic leverage and better relations with China. Seeing as China is likely to have an economic crash when their current workforce gets old(common indicator of economic strength is the ratio of workforce to dependents[children, the old, the sick, etc.]), and we continue to encourage strong relationships with China in our investments, once again I say that it is possible we will see a free North Korea in their lifetimes.

And the idea of war is even with the relatively short stint of death and destruction, afterwards we have a united Korea. I know many Koreans wish they could reunite with family that lives in NK. It's one of those grey things, ya know? And I wouldn't be too sure if it would lead to a new recession. It certainly would be difficult and a bit costly. NK is about a quarter the size of Iraq, and unlike Iraq we would be going in with some semblance of escape/endgame plan. However, South Korea would take heavy hits from artillery and such.

They have a large military with very little capability and training that we have no idea how effective it is. For all we know, that cult of personality they made with the Kims extends to the military and they really don't know how to fight(although that is severely unlikely).
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