Primary discussion forum. Also, feel free this use as a hangout for fans of the funny non-story based comics.
Tue May 03, 2011 12:35 am
Obama doesn't have the balls to fake Osama bin Laden's death. He would lose the election if he did that. Sheer fact is that if Osama is still alive, there'll be a video a couple of days from now announcing him as still alive.
Tue May 03, 2011 2:52 am
There will probably be one anyways.
Osama seems like the sort of guy who'd go out of his way to have one made, just in the case of his death, so AQ can continue pretending he's alive.
Tue May 03, 2011 3:15 am
I think that is one of the reasons they tested his DNA and had someone identify the body.
Tue May 03, 2011 9:25 am
zepherin wrote:Next we'll have Trump demanding to see the death certificate and the deathers will be grumbling about the certificate is a forgery.
It's already happening, apparently.
Tue May 03, 2011 2:25 pm
If Osama is alive, the video he makes has to include events that occur after his "official" death. You would have to find someone you looks exactly like Osama and some one who sounds like him, and that alone would be a crap ton of work, months probably. If a video doesn't come out within the next few weeks, it would easily be debunked by a "why didn't Osama make a video sooner?" argument.
Either, unless Osama comes out to prove he isn't dead, the morning of May second will go down in history as the exact time of his death. I doubt there will be any major retaliation. Possibly embassies in Sudan and Saudi Arabia getting hit, but the more developed Arabic nations are having problems of their own.
On a different note, was anyone else kinda disturbed at how many people were cheering on the streets? I agree, Osama was an evil bastard, but so much joy over killing a man, his wife and his son kinda strikes me as a bit off.
Tue May 03, 2011 4:01 pm
zepherin wrote:I think that is one of the reasons they tested his DNA and had someone identify the body.
The curious thing is where did they get a comparison sample from... and how do they prove that sample came from him and not joe blow who they also shot in the face.
AND THEN how do they prove they didn't just compare existing samples since they got rid of the body?
Tue May 03, 2011 4:11 pm
They have close relatives to compare DNA to.
Like they honestly have his sister's brain archived for comparison
Among DNA samples of other close relatives.
Tue May 03, 2011 9:19 pm
CAghost wrote:On a different note, was anyone else kinda disturbed at how many people were cheering on the streets? I agree, Osama was an evil bastard, but so much joy over killing a man, his wife and his son kinda strikes me as a bit off.
They didn't kill his wife. She was shot in the leg trying to defend him, but as far as I know she's alive. A woman was shot and killed, however.
They brought the body back to America, from what I understand. Then compared his DNA with his sister's. Then airlifted him out to a cruiser and slid his body into the Arabian Sea. They tried to send it to Saudi Arabia (as per Islamic tradition), but Saudi Arabia refused his remains.
Tue May 03, 2011 11:13 pm
Before you guys start spitting at me as you read along, let me say that I am NOT defending Osama. What I said below in this post is based on moral principles and ethical values. It is rather hard to believe that we'd cheer for his death.
Now, I'd like to say also following Kris's post that in Islamic tradition, the dead must be buried with a 24-hour timespan. There are some Muslims who question Osama being buried at sea, but because of this factor and perhaps others, this would be the only option for America.
Ethically, I agree with what CAghost said about the people cheering about the death of Osama.
While I was doing my homework, I stumbled upon this:
Martin Luther King Jr. wrote:I will mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate, only love can do that.
As much as I am glad that "something malicious was removed from the face of the Earth" rather than "Osama is dead", it is rather sadistic that we cheer for the death of one life. As a life now lost, may he rest in peace.
Tue May 03, 2011 11:14 pm
Fun fact: MLK never fucking said that.
Tue May 03, 2011 11:33 pm
If you did your homework you'd see that it was quickly and publicly exposed as fake:http://www.theatlantic.com/national/arc ... on/238257/
Also don't be one of those trite people who just blithely follow quotations as if they're some moral authority by its very nature of being a quote.
This is not like two countries at war. Usually, there is no evil/good dynamic (WW2 being an exception), which would make it wrong for a person to praise the death of an enemy even if is technically a good thing. Wars are usually a muddy mess with no clear right and wrong, making it despicable to revel in the death of an enemy.
Did I celebrate? No. Are the celebrations egregious? Probably. But this was a war perpetrated by a man who expressly desired the annihilation of the Western world and the prevailing of a strict, extremist form of Islam. If you can't agree that man was evil, then there's no point in even talking to you. There was no compromise to be had, no treaty to be negotiated, no rationality at all to the enemy. Which is why people are reveling in his death, because he seemed less than human to be that evil and uncompromising, since humans are supposed to be to some degree reasonable. Wars usually use propaganda to try to achieve this same effect in dehumanizing the enemy, but it wasn't even needed for bin Laden.
While he did say part of the quote as the article says, if you were too lazy to read it or merely skim it, he didn't actually say the first sentence. The following sentences were a quote from MLK to back up those words.
And who really cares if MLK said something? Many people are just as moral as him (he was also a plagiarizer and an adulterer), if not more so. People only use quotes to back up what they already think, they rarely use them as a foundation for new views. No one switches sides after reading a contradictory quote. It is just a flat out appeal to authority that holds no real logical basis.
Tue May 03, 2011 11:34 pm
Stufflikehearts wrote:Fun fact: MLK never fucking said that.
What my linguistics professor had to say on the matter:
For all of you who think it's hilarious that the MLK quote hoax duped so many, you're missing the point; that quote captured the feeling of many yesterday who were both relieved but certainly not joyous about bin Laden's death. To focus on the hoax ¬ the sentiment doesn't so much show how easily duped we all are as how unbelievably cynical we have become. For me the quote stands, wherever it came from.
Tue May 03, 2011 11:36 pm
Ahh, Eagleman and Mathias both ninja'd me, and Eagleman wrote much more eloquently than my response would have been I might add... I'm just appalled at how many people have misquoted this in such a short amount of time.
Tue May 03, 2011 11:37 pm
It's a good quote, but I find it hilarious people slapped MLK's name onto it to make it popular. And that people fell for it.
Tue May 03, 2011 11:40 pm
Come on, I was about to post that. @Stuff - Read the article
. It wasn't initially deceptive.
Anyway, death is bad, mkay? So killing people is bad. Bin Laden was probably dangerous enough (as a figurehead), even if taken alive, that killing him was plausibly morally justified. That's pretty rare.
Tue May 03, 2011 11:47 pm
Tell me, how many of you actually celebrated or knew people that did? And a simple "He's dead! Awesome!" or some variant like that doesn't count. There is a difference between thinking it is awesome how it (the operation) went down and the fact that he died and actually taking enjoyment in the death itself.
What you saw on the news was the jubilation of New Yorkers. People personally seared by his actions, his terrorism, many with family members, loved ones, friends, and acquaintances lost to the tragedy, with rescue teams and those in the vicinity at the time still afflicted with illnesses and cancers caused by the rubble there, physically suffering to this day because of his actions, all still depressed by the sight of Ground Zero, a constant reminder of the pain and grief caused by the event.
I guess it's okay to act morally judgmental and superior when you haven't been the one to experience the loss.
Wed May 04, 2011 12:29 am
There's reasonable expectation
, there is practicality
, and then there are aspirations
Morals aren't supposed to be abandoned in difficult times. That's when they're most important.
Wed May 04, 2011 12:46 am
I wasn't necessarily talking about morals themselves, only acting superior because of their alleged possession.
In difficult times, when you aren't the one bearing the burden, it also becomes the easiest to act morally superior. Men who dodged the draft criticizing the war. The well-off criticizing the poor in rough economic times. At a point it becomes a privilege for one to be critical of a differing side. I am highly doubtful Rosso would be acting as virtuous if he had been personal affected by the tragedy of 9/11, and if still forgiving (which would be perfectly acceptable), to at the very least be able to understand why people might rejoice in his death, and not term their relief as "sadistic". Ideology, in some instances, is the gift to the sheltered.
Wed May 04, 2011 1:56 am
I accept that if I had lost friends in 9/11 I'd probably feel more joy in Osama's death. I admit, when I heard the news, I felt the urge to shout "U.S.A!" a little, though I'm sure the people around me would have given me funny looks. Valhallen is right. Despite what we teach about how killing should only be justified last resort, celebrating death contradicts that. Rosso is out of line to say "sadistic", but it certainly doesn't paint anyone in the crowd in the best light.
I saw a clip on Youtube (can't find the link now) where the screen was in to. One side, the photo of dead Bin Laden. The other was the film of the crowd cheering. It was like a public execution had happened and we were cheering for it.
We can't say we would never do that, but that we will try and live by humbly accepting death, for both our friends and enemies.
Wed May 04, 2011 11:12 pm
Hm...do you remember the part in 'The Lord of the Rings' (the first one) where they cut the evil orc's head off and everyone cheered? I think this is kinda the same thing. I don't think that cheering over a person's death is bad, who the person was makes a difference on whether or not people should respect the value of his life. Let me put it this way, I don't think the guy deserved any better and most people don't. Sure, partying in the streets is a little...crude, but Bin Laden was no innocent. I didn't celebrate in the streets, but I wouldn't think badly of anyone who did. Just like with football fans. Now, do I think we should expect better from ourselves? Yes, but that's because I have a lot of faith in humanity.
BTW, it irks me when people defend life and say that wars are all wrong and that they are a the worst thing ever conceived and made by man, and then they say "except for WWII." You shouldn't have to appeal to suffering. Sure, shit sucked, get over it. Learn from history, nevar forget, etc. I don't think that disclaimers of this kind are necessary in the least though.
Thu May 05, 2011 12:12 am
Froggy I hadn't used it in that context. I think you switched someone else's views with my mention of WW2. My reference to it was used to illustrate how very few wars have actual villains to them, where it's pretty much cut and dry who the evil side was. The same can't be said in the Spanish American War for instance, or even the Revolutionary War (the British were hardly tyrants to the colonials by historical standards).
Wars can still have a justification even if there isn't a moral one. In the case of WW2, the U.S. didn't even enter it for moral reasons, it was dragged into it by Japan, which prompted Germany to declare war on us.
I was basically saying it because most enemies would fall under that quote where their death shouldn't be something to take relief in. Osama however, does not, as he created his own problem.
Turns out he was actually buried at sea because his home country didn't even want him. And Muslim rites say you have to be buried within 24 hours, so to the sea he went. Which is convenient of course, because it means a shrine can't be made.
Thu May 05, 2011 1:28 am
Strategically it makes sense to have him killed and put his body at sea. It removes a threat and makes it less likely that a grave site will become a focus.
Thu May 05, 2011 2:03 am
That awkward moment when people are laughing at the spelling at "Usama" when it's pretty much the correct spelling. :|
Thu May 05, 2011 2:04 am
The CIA and FBI spelled it Usama.
Thu May 05, 2011 2:08 am
His name in arabic is Usamah bin Ladin. I know everyone was freaking about Fox News spelling it "Usama", but I'm pretty sure they did it so no one read it as "Obama".
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