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Re: "Tell them to make it count."

Postby BobSagat » Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:44 pm

Jay wrote:Your opinion is shit and you are shit.
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Re: "Tell them to make it count."

Postby Mathias » Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:21 pm

Mathias wrote:And it isn't really my opinion; it was a devil's advocate.

Mathias wrote:But that's off-topic.
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Re: "Tell them to make it count."

Postby Casmiricus » Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:37 am

Wow, whaddaya know, my first time on the boards in... 18 months? Something like that, and on the first page is something that sparks my interest.

I actually think that a colony on Mars is more feasible long term than space stations. In the first place, stations have no effective shielding from solar radiation, one of the larger problems of space travel. Second, bone-mass-loss in a zero or near-zero gravity environment is highly accelerated, which leads to all sorts of medical problems. Beyond that we have the utter lack of any way to gain useful materials (Vacuum not being either valuable or easy to transport) renders space stations zero-gain and total drain.

A colony on the moon is the best option for our first go, IMO. It would have the virtues of being:
A) Close enough for both personnel and materials transfer
B) More well known than Mars
C) Mere seconds of delay away (At light speed) as opposed to anywhere from 10-45 minutes depending on relative positioning
D) We know that there are useful materials to be exploited from Mars, not the least of which is the wealth of argon gas that comes from decaying potassium
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Re: "Tell them to make it count."

Postby Vegedus » Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:04 am

Jay wrote:I like the people who think opinions are inherently valuable despite content.

You think opinions can have value, period?
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Re: "Tell them to make it count."

Postby Rival » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:59 am

Sentios wrote: In fewer words I'm saying that humanity as a whole isn't mature enough to spread through the stars yet, using our inability to cooperate on important matters as an example of this.

The idea of a colony on Mars taking instruction from say America or China is also very silly. It may be that way for a while but how many countries still have colonies?

Well, I guess we'll have to agree that our assertions in that regard are just too different. Though I respect your opinion, I believe our inability to cooperate on important matters like the oil spill is due to antagonisms between cultures and political systems, not due to lack of maturity of humanity as a species. I believe that once we have the proper technology to build cities there and as long as it's one country(or cultural cirle) doing it, it'd work. The only reason I don't want it to happen now, is due to technology not being on a level where it won't be that risky. And due to how a flop would create paranoia concerning colonialization.

I also agree with EagleMan that separation movements are unlikely to occur.
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Re: "Tell them to make it count."

Postby Sentios » Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:16 pm

EagleMan wrote:I don't see how the children would be much affected.

Humans for most of history have been raised through some pretty terrible and squalid conditions.

If the child's born there, they won't miss what they haven't had. And if they're actually allowed to have children (they would obey orders of course), then obviously the situation they have at their base is an incredibly positive one for it to merit the go-ahead for allowing children.

And Sentios if a full-fledged colony is actually established.. then clearly transportation between the planets will be easy. Separation movements are incredibly harder to achieve today compared to previous centuries. They'd have even less of a chance in the future. A fresh start would also count for a lot too. We wouldn't have to go through the Industrial Age again and reinvent "green" technology, we'd arrive there technology and knowledge in hand.


If the parents have homesickness they can pass it on to their children easily enough, all the child needs to be able to do is compare stories of a lush green Earth, with oxygen a plenty to a barren red Mars.

Except that our space travel tech is currently one way, those on Mars would have to be cooperative to send anything back to us. The only reason it's hard to secede here is that we dominate Earth, there's almost no where that we can not go quickly. Dominating interplanetary space is a still a long way off, and even if you did what would you do? Send the Earth military to Mars? That's not even getting into interference from other countries, covertly striking at your distant colonies.

Any effort that is not a unified effort by humanity as a whole is only going to recreate the conditions we all ready have.

Casmiricus wrote:I actually think that a colony on Mars is more feasible long term than space stations. In the first place, stations have no effective shielding from solar radiation, one of the larger problems of space travel. Second, bone-mass-loss in a zero or near-zero gravity environment is highly accelerated, which leads to all sorts of medical problems. Beyond that we have the utter lack of any way to gain useful materials (Vacuum not being either valuable or easy to transport) renders space stations zero-gain and total drain.


You'd need radiation shield to get to Mars to begin with and we can in all theory simulate gravity NASA is just too busy humping their colonization dreams to do something that beneficial. As far as space stations being no benefit, we're not yet at a stage where we can haul massive amounts of materials back and forth from other celestial bodies to begin with, even the moon isn't feasible to my knowledge. Our fuel type for one takes up what should be cargo space.

However in terms of hauling materials around the solar system, space stations are logistics points at the crucial point between outer space and planet. They're even more neccessary when you consider the how ease it would be for a space ship to sustain damage cruising around the planet. They would hold crucial materials and tools for repairing such damage (which would otherwise eat up your cargo space) and even back up means of re-entry for personnel should that fail.
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Re: "Tell them to make it count."

Postby EagleMan » Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:44 pm

I think if a child didn't have the capacity to go back it'd be like how they perceive Heaven. Telling them that in the sky there is this great big paradise well... kids turn out fine after hearing about it. Would be the same thing here except that it's real.

Situations abound in history. Plenty of Europeans heard back from their immigrant family members from America.

Sentios wrote:Except that our space travel tech is currently one way, those on Mars would have to be cooperative to send anything back to us.


I had said "And Sentios if a full-fledged colony is actually established.. then clearly transportation between the planets will be easy." I'd find it incredibly unlikely we'd establish such a nearby colony if we didn't have the capacity for easy travel between Earth and the object in question. Obviously our space travel tech is currently one way. And obviously we don't have a colony currently as well. I'd think the former would have to advance to relatively easy two-way travel before we can establish a colony.

The public certainly wouldn't condone the government's plan basically being "Drop men and women off. Leave them be". If you think the public wouldn't oppose it, then in more authoritarian countries such as China the leadership would still worry about maintaining control, so they themselves would nix a plan where they wouldn't have ease of travel.
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Re: "Tell them to make it count."

Postby Mirak's Mod Ghost » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:21 pm

Oooh oh oh, this would be excellent material for a horror point and click adventure game on the colonization of Mars. =P
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Re: "Tell them to make it count."

Postby Sentios » Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:05 pm

EagleMan wrote:I think if a child didn't have the capacity to go back it'd be like how they perceive Heaven. Telling them that in the sky there is this great big paradise well... kids turn out fine after hearing about it. Would be the same thing here except that it's real.

Situations abound in history. Plenty of Europeans heard back from their immigrant family members from America.

I had said "And Sentios if a full-fledged colony is actually established.. then clearly transportation between the planets will be easy." I'd find it incredibly unlikely we'd establish such a nearby colony if we didn't have the capacity for easy travel between Earth and the object in question. Obviously our space travel tech is currently one way. And obviously we don't have a colony currently as well. I'd think the former would have to advance to relatively easy two-way travel before we can establish a colony.

The public certainly wouldn't condone the government's plan basically being "Drop men and women off. Leave them be". If you think the public wouldn't oppose it, then in more authoritarian countries such as China the leadership would still worry about maintaining control, so they themselves would nix a plan where they wouldn't have ease of travel.


The difference between fantasy and reality is a large one, also I don't think you can go so far as to say that everyone who grew up on stories of heaven ended up being well adjusted... or even sane.

Also the topic is about establishing a colony using our current 1 way trip space travel, therefore your notion of '2 way trip space travel is neccessary for colonization' seems ungrounded in that context. As for what the public does and does not condone... I shouldn't have to tell you this but it's all a matter of how the media spins it.
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