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Postby Wulfespinndel » Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:52 pm

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Re: "Tell them to make it count."

Postby zepherin » Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:27 pm

neat.
But 20 people isn't enough. We need 50 people, more women then men too preferably 2 men to every 3 women, to have a diverse enough genetic sample for success. I don't remember where I read that but apparently 50 is the minimum before we are in danger of going extinct And they would all have to interbreed with each other frequently. But technologically it is feasible. And I think we can terraform the shit out of mars.
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Re: "Tell them to make it count."

Postby Jay » Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:43 pm

Well, the 4-roundtrip = 20 one-way is just a comparison. I don't think they're saying they're only going to send 20.

Anyways, it's only a 4 month trip. Assuming there's always a steady supply of volunteers, sending more to vary the genetics won't be a problem. Even just 20 people can go at least a generation or two without homogenizing the genetics too much, if planned properly.

The number 50 probably assumes that it is impossible to add additional humans from outside the genetic sphere, and that's obviously untrue here. I'd be more concerned about getting enough candidates willing to live in Mars for the long term who are qualified, fit, and specialized enough to actually get to Mars AND settle down there.

Getting volunteers might not be hard, and astronauts might not be too difficult to produce with time, but astronauts willing to hit a dead-end mission like this might be something else completely.
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Re: "Tell them to make it count."

Postby Princess » Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:49 pm

How would you even sign up for that?
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Re: "Tell them to make it count."

Postby PunkyChipsAhoy » Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:56 pm

Uhm fuck that with a giant rake. Imagine settling the Americas only with aliens and laser guns. And no Pocahontas.
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Re: "Tell them to make it count."

Postby zepherin » Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:16 pm

Jay: True it does assume that there is no extra genetic information entering the area, but there is a chance that oh we sent some people there, screw it the program costs too much we'll leave them to their own devices and assume they are self sufficient.

Stuffed: I could find 50 people who would do it easy. I could probably find a few thousand with enough time. Although qualified people well that's another story.

Essentially they would be social outcasts who are, in shape, slightly crazy and want to do something first. That's the best I could come up with.
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Re: "Tell them to make it count."

Postby Sentios » Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:56 pm

This is foolish, the probability of failure is too high and if it fails it might set back future attempts at colonization.

Space station, with lots of people and no time limits on remaining there (without having to exercise 20 hours a day) you incompetent slugs (NASA not you guys). Succeed at that and you can colonize planets at leisure (save transportation).
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Re: "Tell them to make it count."

Postby zepherin » Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:08 pm

Sentios wrote:This is foolish, the probability of failure is too high and if it fails it might set back future attempts at colonization.

Space station, with lots of people and no time limits on remaining there (without having to exercise 20 hours a day) you incompetent slugs (NASA not you guys). Succeed at that and you can colonize planets at leisure (save transportation).

The thing is that eventually we are going to have to take the risk and dedicate ourselves to the project. There is going to be a lot of risk no matter when we do it because we can only hedge against so many potential mishaps and at some point we are going to have to just do it. I think we should send robots capable of construction there first and build some shit first. That way we can build a self contained city by the time we actually want to put people in it.
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Re: "Tell them to make it count."

Postby Stan » Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:37 pm

All it would take is one man, with the potential to be a serial killer, to mess everything up. Look at it this way, besides the mass humping program going on when they get there, dudes and dudettes will be as bored as a rock. Then somebody is going to slip up and sleep with the crazy guy's wife/humpbuddy, then snap...death and mayhem on mars.

Bottom line, send plenty of entertainment if this is going to happen or one guy will go bat shit crazy and NASA will have to restart the whole program.
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Re: "Tell them to make it count."

Postby EagleMan » Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:10 pm

I figure people get along pretty well with monotony already on Earth... I don't see why it'd be so hard in space if you've got plenty of people with you.

I read a similar article on Fox though
so so terribly written.

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/10/ ... ship/print
"The more fuel you add, the more you need simply to move the ship's bulk, making it impossible to go one-way to Mars, much less roundtrip."
“'It might be that technology improves, and the grandchildren of those first Martian colonists return to Earth.'”
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Re: "Tell them to make it count."

Postby Sentios » Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:38 pm

zepherin wrote:The thing is that eventually we are going to have to take the risk and dedicate ourselves to the project. There is going to be a lot of risk no matter when we do it because we can only hedge against so many potential mishaps and at some point we are going to have to just do it. I think we should send robots capable of construction there first and build some shit first. That way we can build a self contained city by the time we actually want to put people in it.


There's a difference between a risk and an unnecessary risk. Skipping to colonizing other planets when we can barely survive being in space is an unnecessary risk.

Never mind the inherent foolishness in expanding when you can't even take care of what you have.

Also never minding the inherent unethical problem of 'you must have lots of kids'.
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Re: "Tell them to make it count."

Postby Mathias » Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:05 am

zepherin wrote:Stuffed:

LOL

On topic, instead of copping out of cleaning the mess on this planet, we should not be concerned with ruining another one so soon.
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Re: "Tell them to make it count."

Postby zepherin » Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:15 am

Stan wrote:All it would take is one man, with the potential to be a serial killer, to mess everything up. Look at it this way, besides the mass humping program going on when they get there, dudes and dudettes will be as bored as a rock. Then somebody is going to slip up and sleep with the crazy guy's wife/humpbuddy, then snap...death and mayhem on mars.

Bottom line, send plenty of entertainment if this is going to happen or one guy will go bat shit crazy and NASA will have to restart the whole program.


We can send data to mars. There is a delay but really who on Mars is going to care if there is a 6 minute delay when they are watching Dexter.

Although I think the crazy person aspect is important because as I said the only people I know who would jump on board this program are unstable. It would be difficult to maintain order on that planet. Maybe put a low level of antidepressants in the water supply.
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Re: "Tell them to make it count."

Postby Mathias » Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:17 am

zepherin wrote:Maybe put a low level of antidepressants in the water supply.

People would protest to that.

I know a girl who even said that anti-depressants were bad.
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Re: "Tell them to make it count."

Postby NeoWarrior7 » Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:27 am

Mathias wrote:
zepherin wrote:Maybe put a low level of antidepressants in the water supply.

People would protest to that.

I know a girl who even said that anti-depressants were bad.

Well, you don't bloody TELL them. They're nutjobs. You tell them something else to distract their paranoia from the REAL trick.

Also, saw an article on one man and his plasma engines. Very nice, would speed up travel and make it safer. Plus, you can change direction with those.
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Re: "Tell them to make it count."

Postby Vegedus » Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:12 am

Jay wrote:Getting volunteers might not be hard, and astronauts might not be too difficult to produce with time, but astronauts willing to hit a dead-end mission like this might be something else completely.

Yeah, I was thinking that too. Lots of people willing to abandon this world. Not so many qualified ones.

In general it seems a bit early to do this kinda stuff.
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Re: "Tell them to make it count."

Postby Rival » Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:11 am

Mathias wrote:
zepherin wrote:Stuffed:

LOL

On topic, instead of copping out of cleaning the mess on this planet, we should not be concerned with ruining another one so soon.

As a species we should only care about our own survival, life on Earth is hard to estinguish and has survived way worse stuff than humanity. No other species cares about the whole ecosystem of the planet, so why should we? We should only care about it in so far as it can affect us, protecting the enviroment and avoiding pollution and short-sighted destruction is good and all and I support it, but if we start to see the main goal of humanity to be "cleaning" the Earth and not leaving it until everything is "fixed" then it gets a bit insane.

With that said, I completely agree with Sentios, it's too soon, and a flop will have disastrous consequences. It might have the same impact as Chernobyl had, and skew how humanity views colonialization for centuries. We should definitely focus on space stations and Moon trips for now.

Also, I'm no expert on this, but who else thinks China's increased focus on space exploration may have motivated the NASA to start colonialization attempts way faster than necessary? This is just an assumpton, so I'd welcome some input from people who have better knowledge of world politics than I do, like Zeph, Valhallen, or Jonathon.
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Re: "Tell them to make it count."

Postby Mathias » Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:23 am

I tend to agree with Agent Smith's notion that humanity is a virus.
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Re: "Tell them to make it count."

Postby Rival » Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:50 am

Mathias wrote:I tend to agree with Agent Smith's notion that humanity is a virus.

I don't recommend using mainstream hollywood produced blockbuster movies as a way to provoke reflections concerning the nature of humanity. Kant, Locke, Zola or Camus do a better job at it.
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Re: "Tell them to make it count."

Postby Mathias » Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:53 am

I'm not trying to persuade or dissuade anyone. Simply contributing my opinion to the discussion.

If I were, more people would be familiar with the motion picture media, I would argue.
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Re: "Tell them to make it count."

Postby Rival » Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:07 am

Mathias wrote:I'm not trying to persuade or dissuade anyone. Simply contributing my opinion to the discussion.

If I were, more people would be familiar with the motion picture media, I would argue.

Yeah, but you still go with a line from the movie as the "correct" view on humanity, or at least as the one you agree with.

Humanity is insanely complicated and I don't think the whole "we are a virus" conclusion is remotely deep or insightful enough to go along with.
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Re: "Tell them to make it count."

Postby Mathias » Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:11 am

And you certainly don't have to. It is simply a simple conclusion concluded in a simple mind.
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Re: "Tell them to make it count."

Postby PunkyChipsAhoy » Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:32 pm

So is Rival one of those contrarians that think that everything out of hollywood that is popular is shitty?
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Re: "Tell them to make it count."

Postby zepherin » Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:40 pm

Yay Kant, although me and him disagree on certain aspects of altruism.
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Re: "Tell them to make it count."

Postby Rival » Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:06 pm

JesusChrist wrote:So is Rival one of those contrarians that think that everything out of hollywood that is popular is shitty?

No, I just think that when debating the nature of humanity one should go to influential philosophers who've spent a solid portion of their lives pondering it and had an enormous influence on occidental civilization, rather than people in the entertainment industry.

The Matrix is 11 years old and hardly that popular anymore.

zepherin wrote:Yay Kant, although me and him disagree on certain aspects of altruism.

I don't entirely agree with either of the four. Out of the ones I mentioned, I believe my world view is closest to Zola, since a bunch of my views are naturalist, though unlike him I'm not as open to socialism. Kant is doubtlessly one of the most influential western thinkers though and anyone into philosophy should form an opinion on his views.
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